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[Gen. Cornrow Wallace]

One theoretical question for making new cards is whether or not we want to keep/trash/do some of both with the Revolution streamlining of card text. Honestly, I wouldn't mind adding things like "Requirement:" to the Classic cards, but I'm fairly sure I'll be in the minority on that.

There were some good things about Revo to be fair... I liked the idea of all SS-moves being thrown into the Trademark category (of course the Eugene factor is always there)... but I think you make a legion of decks more playable if you went in that direction... but there's issues with that too like reversals (but the idea in a good wrestling match both wrestlers hit their spots so they should be hard to stop)

the thing is if you add "Requirement" instead of "Can only be played after" you're now errataing Shane-O-Mac too

but hey if you're gonna fix the thing... fix the thing right??

But then if u switch can only be played with requirment you also have a problem with mr ppv. and if u errata him to be able to ignore requirments he gets even more rediculas.

Not entirely. Going off memory here (and I'm no rules guru, so if Creed/Griffey/WK want to correct me on anything in the rest of this paragraph, please do), it's only his Superstar Specifics that he can discard to ignore. If that's the case, errata that enables him to discard to ignore Requirements on Superstar Specifics does, precisely, nothing until such time as he has a Superstar Specific with a Requirement. Shane, actually, would come under Follow-up rules rather than Requirements, at this point, and that could be dealt with by adding a line like "Your High Risk Follow-up:Maneuver cards are instead Follow-up:Card."

The problem with ppv would come if u changed it to requirment he could pack a bunch of corners and not even play them and just ability to ignore the requirment.

[Tenshigure]

All of these things are obvoiusly discussions that would be made within the Committee (HAHA!). I for one agree that the introduction of Trademarks was probably the best thing that came out of Revolution, since it made those really stupid weak moves that all wrestlers can do viably powerful without making it assigned as a "Finisher" (ie the Five Knuckle Shuffle is a Fist Drop, but is rarely reversed).

As it stands, absolutely no older cards should be errata'd to mix with Revo/AA abilities to be honest, they were playtested and balanced within that environment for a reason. If anything, throw them into the ban pit or create new versions of the cards (Vengance cards?) that would emulate the same thing but with the new requirements.

I'm actually excited that all of this stuff is going down as it is. Sure no real plans have been set into motion, but we have definitely got ourselves the organization and the motivation to keep the game alive. Obviously I'm in this for the long haul as well.

It was fitting as Frankie put in the Singapore Forum: Raw Deal is dead, long Live Raw Deal!!

[Negleyjj]

Not only that folks, but we could also introduce wrestlers that we've been wanting in for years: Indy, Japan, TNA, you name it, we can expand this whole genre. ECW's Extremists gave us an idea as to how to implement this properly, so the sky's the limit now. Plus, since it's not PC-ran, it's unofficially official after proper playtesting if we do so.

Absolutely. Just imagine the possibilities: Road Warriors vs. Samoa Joe. Bryan Danielson vs. MVP. Bruno Sammartino vs. Antonio Inoki. Once we're in control, we can make whatever we want.

One theoretical question for making new cards is whether or not we want to keep/trash/do some of both with the Revolution streamlining of card text. Honestly, I wouldn't mind adding things like "Requirement:" to the Classic cards, but I'm fairly sure I'll be in the minority on that.

Honestly I say we stay away from adding requirement: to classic cards. We shouldn't mess with stuff that doesn't need to be tampered with. Honestly Classic cards don't need to be tampered with at all. It wouldn't make any sense

Agreed.

[ponder505]

Aha. I was wondering where some of this line of argument came from, then in rereading my first post about it, I realized I may not have clarified one fairly important part of the equation well enough.

I was referring to putting the new wording on virtual cards, if we make them, not changing older cards through errata. Presuming we make virtual Classic cards, it might not hurt to consider the possibility, though I will readily admit I hadn't taken the Corner/Mr. PPV interaction into account (That's what happens when you've never played either PPV or a Corner card, I guess.)

Either way, first we have to fully establish a players committee, and I suspect if we want to make virtual cards, we'll need Barron and Mike's approval, since they still own the engine (and leapfrogging that obstacle won't be easy.)

[MediumSexy]

Speaking of the RDPC, I'm working on finding a plugin where Regional Rankings Coordinators could input tournament results online and update an online ranking, much like WOTC and other companies, or even something simple like the online magic league (www.magicleague.com). If anyone has any ideas on this, feel free to pm me. Thanks!

[MediumSexy]

Well dookie. Don't you just love cellphones. That should be www.magic-league.com

[piperspitt]

Aha. I was wondering where some of this line of argument came from, then in rereading my first post about it, I realized I may not have clarified one fairly important part of the equation well enough.

I was referring to putting the new wording on virtual cards, if we make them, not changing older cards through errata. Presuming we make virtual Classic cards, it might not hurt to consider the possibility, though I will readily admit I hadn't taken the Corner/Mr. PPV interaction into account (That's what happens when you've never played either PPV or a Corner card, I guess.)

Either way, first we have to fully establish a players committee, and I suspect if we want to make virtual cards, we'll need Barron and Mike's approval, since they still own the engine (and leapfrogging that obstacle won't be easy.)

Can anybody explain to me why they think we would need Mike and Barron's permission to make fantasy cards?  I'm sure they didn't approve of the San Diego Comicon unofficial promo cards of Machoman, Sammartino, LOD, Road Warriors etc.   I also would bet that they don't care that they were created.

[Tenshigure]

IANAL, but as long as we're not trying to make a profit off of said virtual cards, I don't see how we would be infringing on the game unless the engine and the name Raw Deal were bought by another company sooner than we'd like to think.

Better safe than sorry though, ne? We don't want to have to start an RDPC Legal Fund so soon, after all!

[piperspitt]

It would be nice to have their blessing, but I really doubt either would have enough money to blow on a lawsuit against a non-profit group of people who wouldn't pay a judgment anyway.  They would have to pay thousnads of dollars and get a cease and desist.  Even if they could afford it, I doubt they would waste their money on something so trivial.

[ponder505]

What Tenshi said. Is it likely they'd come after us? No. But is it impossible? Also no, and I don't think any of us can afford dealing with it if we have to.

[Tenshigure]

Well we are talking about an engine here that could still rake in cash, and if virtual cards, even if they aren't being made for a profit, are stealing their chances of earning revenue again, there are decent grounds to file for a cease and desist, especially if they do find a new buyer quickly. Or, as I mentioned, if say for example WotC snagged the engine....you can bet your ass they'd throw a cease and desist out there up quick.

[piperspitt]

Exactly, a cease and desist wouldn't hurt anybody, but the chances of a judge even listening to a complaint about fantasy cards is between slim and none.  And slim just left town.

[TheGreatWhiteDope]

this is what will keep us rocking...i'm 100% on board

[gkoa]

IANAL, but as long as we're not trying to make a profit off of said virtual cards, I don't see how we would be infringing on the game unless the engine and the name Raw Deal were bought by another company sooner than we'd like to think.

Better safe than sorry though, ne? We don't want to have to start an RDPC Legal Fund so soon, after all!

And this is where my experience with Highlander : MLE comes in...

The VR cards come under the broad category "fan fiction" and as long you are not making ANY money off of the item, you are pretty safe.

And when I say ANY money, I mean in any, way, shape or form.  This includes banners, pop-ups, links, sponsor pages etc.

Also = you do have to remember that WWE does love to go after fan groups that they think might even be close to enfringing on their market share (remember them giving TNA a cease & desist oder over using "Superstar" as a term?) even if the person isn't under contact.
They went after a guy running a Big Van Vader fan website...because there might be a chance Vader could work with them at some point in the future.

If this is to have any legs, it would have to be kept somewhat quite so it didn't attract the wrong kind of interest.

Adam

[kakitadairu]

IANAL, but as long as we're not trying to make a profit off of said virtual cards, I don't see how we would be infringing on the game unless the engine and the name Raw Deal were bought by another company sooner than we'd like to think.

Better safe than sorry though, ne? We don't want to have to start an RDPC Legal Fund so soon, after all!

And this is where my experience with Highlander : MLE comes in...

The VR cards come under the broad category "fan fiction" and as long you are not making ANY money off of the item, you are pretty safe.

And when I say ANY money, I mean in any, way, shape or form.  This includes banners, pop-ups, links, sponsor pages etc.

Also = you do have to remember that WWE does love to go after fan groups that they think might even be close to enfringing on their market share (remember them giving TNA a cease & desist oder over using "Superstar" as a term?) even if the person isn't under contact.
They went after a guy running a Big Van Vader fan website...because there might be a chance Vader could work with them at some point in the future.

If this is to have any legs, it would have to be kept somewhat quite so it didn't attract the wrong kind of interest.

Adam

Hey Adam,

This is a great point which is why I think its important to attach a lawyer to the project some time sooner than later:D

I am in for however I'm needed and can contribute (but I'm not a lawyer [although I have some friends who might have passed the bar today]).

If I end up doing something good, you can all thank an awesome manager who gave out bootleg classic wrestling match VHS tapes as tournament participation prizes. That touch made me feel a part of something unique.

One question that really needs to be addressed since it seems to me that we are definitely working for a RDC/ All Axxxess ish format, is if we are also going to support Rev only as well.

Cheers,

Dai

[Antigoth]

One question that really needs to be addressed since it seems to me that we are definitely working for a RDC/ All Axxxess ish format, is if we are also going to support Rev only as well.

Absolutely.

Here is my current "vision"
We support Raw Deal for the players - You own the cards, you decide how you want to play it.

If that means you want AA, you've got it. You want RDC, you've got it. You want Revo only - you've got it.

One of the challenges that I had with the previous organizational structure that Raw Deal had was that you had to play in what one individual percieved was the "optimal" format.

Their your cards. You play with them in what ever format you feel you are going to get the most enjoyment out of.

There are going to be some areas that got back in on the Revo bandwagon, great, play with those cards. There's some areas that quit the game due to Revo (Hello Texas!). IF we make virtual cards, and you don't want to use them, that's cool. If you want to make your own virtual cards, and use them in your own area, hey... power to you.

For official events, we will have core rules and expectations, and all four (or five, with Vengeance) will be supported on a rotating basis. 

[Tenshigure]

I for one love the idea of a Vengeance format (or whatever) that will allow us to bring in the new cards as well as introduce a banned cards list (which is honestly what Afterburn SHOULD have been...unless we decide to change Afterburn's whole definition to this?).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these were the 5 we're proposing:

- All Axxess: Any and all card, RDC, Revo, and PC-sanctioned virtual cards.
- Afterburn: Any cards released from SS3 and Armageddon after, Revo or RDC (no Virtual cards).
- Revolution: Any card made that has a "Revo" symbol on it.
- Raw Deal Classic: Any card made that doesn't have a "Revo" symbol on it.
- Vengeance: The PC-defined Afterburn-list, rotating out and in banned cards where deemed necessary as well as including new sets of Virtual cards.


So if this is the case, here's what I propose we do with the 'Worlds' format as well. Since I'd love to have titles for several people for these various formats, and not everyone's ultra comfortable with one format or another, I propose we make the championships different titles, such as the following:

World Championship - All Axxess Champion
Heavyweight - Revolution Champion
Intercontinental - RDC Champion
Cruiserweight - Afterburn Champion
Hardcore - Vengeance Champion
Undisputed - The Winner of the Finals Between the Champions of the other titles

These are obviously prep names, but the idea is that the tournament entry fees (at first) would go towards the cost of purchasing authentic belts for these titles as well as the Worlds tickets (again, this is obviously depending on the number of people who stick it out). The 'champ' would get to hold it for his run, as well as receive a cheap replica or a plaque for them to keep after their run is over.

Probably not going to be on top priority to say the least, but I'd love to at least see that people who suck at other formats (ie people who won't touch Revo with a 10-foot pole) still can compete and be recognized for their talent, as well as be recognized for their skill.

EDIT: Fixed.

[piperspitt]

I like the idea.  Only error I see is that Afterburn did not include Vengeance, I think you meant to say Armageddon.

[kakitadairu]

One question that really needs to be addressed since it seems to me that we are definitely working for a RDC/ All Axxxess ish format, is if we are also going to support Rev only as well.

Absolutely.

Here is my current "vision"
We support Raw Deal for the players - You own the cards, you decide how you want to play it.

If that means you want AA, you've got it. You want RDC, you've got it. You want Revo only - you've got it.

One of the challenges that I had with the previous organizational structure that Raw Deal had was that you had to play in what one individual percieved was the "optimal" format.

Their your cards. You play with them in what ever format you feel you are going to get the most enjoyment out of.

There are going to be some areas that got back in on the Revo bandwagon, great, play with those cards. There's some areas that quit the game due to Revo (Hello Texas!). IF we make virtual cards, and you don't want to use them, that's cool. If you want to make your own virtual cards, and use them in your own area, hey... power to you.

For official events, we will have core rules and expectations, and all four (or five, with Vengeance) will be supported on a rotating basis. 

To me the large issue isn't one of card pool, its one of rules, since RDC and Rev have different rule sets. That's what actually concerns me.

Cheers,

Dai

[Antigoth]

Dai,

    When you get a chance can you pop open a new thread outlining your concerns around the rules differences been Revo and RDC?

    It's a conversation that I want to have, but do not want to thread jack this one.

[seanpwilson]

two things:
i'm totally for this and voted accordingly, though i only know one other person here in st tony that plays

and two, what is RDC again?

[Antigoth]

two things:
i'm totally for this and voted accordingly, though i only know one other person here in st tony that plays

Thanks! Hopefully if the RDPC goes forward (which it looks like it will) you will be able to get a few more players.

and two, what is RDC again?

Raw Deal Classic, or all Raw Deal Prior to Revo.

[deadbody]

IANAL, but as long as we're not trying to make a profit off of said virtual cards, I don't see how we would be infringing on the game unless the engine and the name Raw Deal were bought by another company sooner than we'd like to think.

Better safe than sorry though, ne? We don't want to have to start an RDPC Legal Fund so soon, after all!

And this is where my experience with Highlander : MLE comes in...

The VR cards come under the broad category "fan fiction" and as long you are not making ANY money off of the item, you are pretty safe.

And when I say ANY money, I mean in any, way, shape or form.  This includes banners, pop-ups, links, sponsor pages etc.

Also = you do have to remember that WWE does love to go after fan groups that they think might even be close to enfringing on their market share (remember them giving TNA a cease & desist oder over using "Superstar" as a term?) even if the person isn't under contact.
They went after a guy running a Big Van Vader fan website...because there might be a chance Vader could work with them at some point in the future.

If this is to have any legs, it would have to be kept somewhat quite so it didn't attract the wrong kind of interest.

Adam

FYI IANAL but I do work in Tax Collections for my state, if we issue v-cards (and I'm pretty involved with the Star Wars CCG so I'm familiar with some of the issues) WWE needs to be on board.  Expecially if they sell the rights to produce the game to another company.

None of us can afford to fight a legal battle, and if they get a judgement against you, even if you don't want to pay it, there are collection tools that won't give you a choice (Bank and Wage garnishments come to mind).

If we want to issue v-cards, CI and WWE need to sign off on it.

[piperspitt]

Based on what precedent?

[Antigoth]

Permission Granted:

Subject   Re: So, too must this pass... A message from Mike Foley
From   View message header detail CeltFoley
Date   Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:48 pm
To   Brian Mitchell

Hey Brian,

I have no problem doing whatever you guys want with regard to keeping some organized Raw Deal play in operation. You can even contact Alan Gordon or Jason Griffey as I think Barron was having them forward extra tourney materials to Jason. They might have a few things you could use for prize support with whatever's left in the mix there. I'm sure Jason will be more than eager to hand this off to whomever.

It's too bad things have gotten as slow as they have in regards to the game. I think as well though CI was not a big marketing type company and that didn't help keep things running. So, unfortunately the operation has come to a halt. If we get any opportunities to get things rolling with another publisher or revising the engine I'll let you.

If you guys want to keep the game going in a virtual sense no problem. Let me know how things are going though from time to time alright. I hope to see you again at one of the conventions. I think Peter Bradley wants to still get folks together for WM in Orlando. I'm not sure who all can swing the cost for that out of pocket. But... It's always worth the possible opportunity...

Thanks again for your support over the years and sorry that things have ended. Onward though...

Mike Foley

Onwards and upwards!