Author Topic: explain lions den  (Read 1621 times)

Offline Kingsantino92

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explain lions den
« on: October 23, 2017, 09:47:55 PM »
The Lion's Den Match     (+Steve Blackman & Owen Hart logos)
Pre-match Stipulation
Cannot be blanked.
Non-Unique non-Superstar-specific non-maneuver cards and card effects from non-Unique non-Superstar-specific non-Stipulation cards (exceptVolley This!) cannot move cards from any Ringside.
When you successfully play a maneuver, shuffle up to 1 maneuver from Ringside into your Arsenal.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Permanent

Can someone give me some examples of what can and cannot be used because of this card? Aren't both requirements a contradiction of the other?

Offline Mitch!

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 10:22:14 PM »
One is for cards, one is for card effects.

1st Part: Moving cards only works with Uniques, Specifics and moves.
2nd:Same as part 1 except it also counts effects but leaves stipulations alone so say Chicago Street Fight still works instead of moves.
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Offline Daeva

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 10:26:07 PM »
What can be used with this: Volley This!, World Tour '05, Three Faces of Foley, 360-Degree Clothesline, Duchess of Queensbury Rules Match, et multiple cetera.

What can't be used with this: Steel Chain Shot, Shoot Headlock, Thrust Knee Lift, I Can't Be Reading This Right..., JR Style Clubberin', Flawless Execution, et multiple cetera.

What part of this card seems contradictory?
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Offline Kingsantino92

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 11:08:06 PM »
So a card being played from hand falls under the 1st restriction and not the 2nd as a card effect? Like if I played I Am What I Say I Am and use the effect to pick up 2 cards from ringside that wouldn't be a "non-unique non-stipulation card effect?

Offline dilbert505

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 12:09:00 AM »
OK, I see what the problem is, here. The question you're really getting at is "What makes text on a card just 'the card,' rather than 'a card effect'?"

Chicken Wing (TB):
F: 6 D:6
When successfully played, shuffle 3 cards from your Ringside Pile into your Arsenal.

That card would satisfy the first set of criteria (it is a maneuver card) but not the second, if the card text is a card effect (it is not coming from a Unique, Superstar-Specific, or Stipulation card.)

The OmniFAQ isn't entirely clear on this point; it says that card text often explains the mechanics of an effect in detail, but does not specify if card text is always an effect, or if some card text is just "part of the card."

I'll defer to people with a greater handle on the rules than I have to explain the difference, if there is one, but I think I'm laying out your concerns more clearly. Is that correct?

(On an unrelated note, I think the card you're looking for is actually JBL's reversal, I Am Who I Say I Am, not Mr. Perfect's I Am What I Say I Am, but in either case, the card wouldn't be impacted by either set of criteria on Lion's Den Match, because the card in question is Superstar Specific, and SS cards are exempted from both clauses.)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 12:11:16 AM by dilbert505 »
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Offline darkdestiny91

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 12:59:16 AM »
From what I understood from some posts I've read regarding this.

Can confirm that Steel Chain Shot, Thrust Knee Lift, and Kidney Punch's card effects all don't work inside the Lion's Den. Something like Inverted Leg Lock will work fine; "card effect" in this context refers to effects that are not generated by playing the card.

From the V8(A) spoiler chat, "card effect" is clarified to, in this context, refer to effects that are not generated by playing the card. Thus, it can be referred that "card" should refer to effects generated by playing the actual card.

In your example, JBL's I Am Who I Say I Am's effect will still work, as it is a superstar-specific card and is not blocked by Lion's Den. Also, the card itself isn't contradictory as it itself meets the requirement for the card's effect to still work (is superstar-specific).

Hope this helps.

Edit: Caught this like 4 years since posting it, but I Am Who I Say I Am is a non-unique  :P
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 06:51:09 PM by darkdestiny91 »

Offline Kingsantino92

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2021, 09:51:30 AM »
Are blindside maneuvers effected by the lions den since their effect allows them to be moved from ringside?

Offline CRASHER

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2021, 11:59:18 AM »
Blindsides are played from ringside not moved thanks to SS3 MRP's
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Offline Kingsantino92

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2021, 02:45:45 AM »
What about blindsides like Blindside Choke, Slam, or Kick? They aren't being played from ringside. How does Lions Den effect them since they require the moving of other cards from the game in order to move themselves from ringside to your hand?

Offline CRASHER

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2021, 04:02:02 AM »
they were MRP'ed in ss3 like this:

#021/643 Blindside Kick (V2)
Strike
You may play this card from your Ringside pile.
When played from your Ringside pile, remove all Reversal cards in your Ringside pile from the game.
SV: 1
F: 9      D: 9

#035/643 Blindside Slam (V2)
Grapple
You may play this card from your Ringside pile.
When played from your Ringside pile, remove all Action cards in your Ringside pile from the game.
F: 16      D: 14

#058/643 Blindside Choke (V2)
Submission
You may play this card from your Ringside pile.
When played from your Ringside pile, remove all Maneuver cards in your Ringside pile from the game.
F: 6      D: 8

But just like if you were trapped in a cell or playing against the Rattlesnake, you do them to the best of your ability which is moving none
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 04:04:30 AM by CRASHER »
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Offline BigPimpin

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2021, 08:02:43 AM »
But just like if you were trapped in a cell or playing against the Rattlesnake, you do them to the best of your ability which is moving none

I think this gets back to the poignant question Dilbert was talking about above - card vs. card effect.

I agree you can play those cards from Ringside, but do you do the movement in the text or not?

Does the fact that these are in the timing sequence change that answer?  If they are "cards" while being put through the timing sequence, then they would do the RFG as printed, but if they are "card effects" then they would not.

Cell is more clear since it's just a blanket No to moves unless you have certain logos.
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Offline darkdestiny91

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2021, 06:49:44 PM »
Rattlesnake's ability does something similar - it stops non-unique card and card effects from moving cards from ringside. First, let's look at the text of a Blindside maneuver, we'll just look at Blindside Kick.

#021/643 Blindside Kick (V2)
Strike
You may play this card from your Ringside pile.
When played from your Ringside pile, remove all Reversal cards in your Ringside pile from the game.
SV: 1
F: 9      D: 9

Blindside Kick is being played from Ringside. It will then attempt to move the cards from Ringside, however Rattlesnake's ability will stop it - no cards are moved. Timing Breakdown continues from there. As the RFG part of playing it is not part of a cost to play it ("then", "must" are not used in the text), that means the playing of the card still goes off even when using its played from Ringside effect is stopped by Lion's Den/Rattlesnake's ability.

Offline Kingsantino92

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2021, 05:44:15 AM »
Thank you guys so much for your time and explanations.

Offline BigPimpin

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2021, 04:19:12 PM »
So spoke with Dilbert on this, and here's what he says the correct answer:

A maneuver is considered a "card" for this effect if the effect happens as a result of the playing the card and entering the Timing Breakdown.  Example: text of Bilndside Kick (when played) or text of Chicken Wing (When successfully played).  Any of these moves are allowed under Lion's Den, so Bilindside Kick will RFG your reversals from Ringside despite the Lion's Den.

A maneuver generates a card effect when something happens and the card is not being played.  The text of Thrust Knee Lift is a card effect, and therefore Lion's Den blocks it from happening.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 05:10:27 PM by BigPimpin »
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Offline darkdestiny91

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2021, 11:57:21 PM »
So spoke with Dilbert on this, and here's what he says the correct answer:

A maneuver is considered a "card" for this effect if the effect happens as a result of the playing the card and entering the Timing Breakdown.  Example: text of Blindside Kick (when played) or text of Chicken Wing (When successfully played).  Any of these moves are allowed under Lion's Den, so Blindside Kick will RFG your reversals from Ringside despite the Lion's Den.

A maneuver generates a card effect when something happens and the card is not being played.  The text of Thrust Knee Lift is a card effect, and therefore Lion's Den blocks it from happening.

I guess for balance, this does make sense. In that case, Blindside Kick WILL RFG the reversals from your ringside (it is a card that meets the qualifiers put out by Lion's Den and the RFG trigger will still go off since it is considered a 'card' and not a 'card effect') but Blindside Kick will not RFG reversals from your ringside via Rattlesnake's ability since that stops 'non-unique cards' from moving any cards from ringside.

Thanks for the clarification!

Offline Kingsantino92

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2021, 07:11:34 AM »
So spoke with Dilbert on this, and here's what he says the correct answer:

A maneuver is considered a "card" for this effect if the effect happens as a result of the playing the card and entering the Timing Breakdown.  Example: text of Blindside Kick (when played) or text of Chicken Wing (When successfully played).  Any of these moves are allowed under Lion's Den, so Blindside Kick will RFG your reversals from Ringside despite the Lion's Den.

A maneuver generates a card effect when something happens and the card is not being played.  The text of Thrust Knee Lift is a card effect, and therefore Lion's Den blocks it from happening.

I guess for balance, this does make sense. In that case, Blindside Kick WILL RFG the reversals from your ringside (it is a card that meets the qualifiers put out by Lion's Den and the RFG trigger will still go off since it is considered a 'card' and not a 'card effect') but Blindside Kick will not RFG reversals from your ringside via Rattlesnake's ability since that stops 'non-unique cards' from moving any cards from ringside.

Thanks for the clarification!


Is this right? Rattlesnake can play blindsides from ringside and not RFG anything with the effect? So blindside ego is perfect for him

Offline BigPimpin

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2021, 08:09:41 AM »
So spoke with Dilbert on this, and here's what he says the correct answer:

A maneuver is considered a "card" for this effect if the effect happens as a result of the playing the card and entering the Timing Breakdown.  Example: text of Blindside Kick (when played) or text of Chicken Wing (When successfully played).  Any of these moves are allowed under Lion's Den, so Blindside Kick will RFG your reversals from Ringside despite the Lion's Den.

A maneuver generates a card effect when something happens and the card is not being played.  The text of Thrust Knee Lift is a card effect, and therefore Lion's Den blocks it from happening.

I guess for balance, this does make sense. In that case, Blindside Kick WILL RFG the reversals from your ringside (it is a card that meets the qualifiers put out by Lion's Den and the RFG trigger will still go off since it is considered a 'card' and not a 'card effect') but Blindside Kick will not RFG reversals from your ringside via Rattlesnake's ability since that stops 'non-unique cards' from moving any cards from ringside.

Thanks for the clarification!


Is this right? Rattlesnake can play blindsides from ringside and not RFG anything with the effect? So blindside ego is perfect for him

As long as the Blindside is non-unique then yes, Rattlesnake can throw Blindside Kick/Choke/Slam/Ab Stretch/Control for "free" from Ringside.

Ego works too but IIRC Ego required a discard of 2 cards as well as Ringside RFG
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Offline Kingsantino92

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2021, 10:47:44 AM »
What is IIRC Ego? I'm having a brain fart right now and can't decipher

Offline BigPimpin

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2021, 10:59:48 AM »
What is IIRC Ego? I'm having a brain fart right now and can't decipher

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly.

Ego refers to Blindside Ego.
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Offline Kingsantino92

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2021, 08:21:24 AM »
Blindsided ego say "you must discard two cards and then remove  all reversal cards in your ringside pile from the game" does the must go for both effects or just the discarding?

Offline Hogtrail

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2021, 08:27:02 AM »
MRP

Blindsided Ego (V2)
Reversal: Special
Can only be played from your Ringside pile and when you have 2 or more cards in your hand.
When played from your Ringside pile, reverse any non-unique maneuver or any card with the word "ego" in the title and end your opponent's turn. Discard 2 cards and then remove all Reversal cards that do not have the word "Blindside" in the title in your Ringside pile from the game.   
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Online NJDevil18

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2021, 07:29:57 PM »
Just curious, what about the non throwback?

Offline Daeva

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Re: explain lions den
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2021, 04:39:02 PM »
FAQ:
Blindsided Ego
<snip>
The ‘You must…’ clause only applies to discarding 2 cards.  A player may still play this card if he does not have Reversal cards in his Ringside pile or cannot remove cards from the game due to Hell in a Cell Match, The Rattlesnake, etc.
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