Author Topic: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)  (Read 8365 times)

Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2009, 12:55:48 PM »
No, you just don't get it. You can not tell students and parents that they have to move to a different school because of religious intolerance. Public schools should not have any endorsement of religious beliefs. If parents want their children in an environment where there is a designated prayer period than THEY can move their children into private religious schools not the other way around.
should schools endorse affirmative action? Homosexuality?women's rights? Or any other subject that excludes people that don't agree?
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Offline Turd Ferguson

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2009, 06:59:16 PM »
Having a state sponsored moment of prayer is shoving religion in one's face. If you want to pray do it on your own time, organize it before/after class or during lunch break for all I care. I just don't feel that public schools should be endorsing prayer. They should not ban it if the students wish to form their own prayer groups, but there should be no state mandated moment of silence or whatever you want to dress it up as.

Brock where did I ever say I threatened violence on anyone of a different belief system than my own? I accept people for who they are and encourage others to have believes contrary to my own so long as they respect mine and do not attempt to force theirs onto others.
who said state sponsored? What about celebrating Martin Luther Kings birthday? Should that be shoved down our throats? What about gay pride month? How about European history? Algebra? Like I said earlier, nobody has religion forced on them in a school sanctioned moment of silence, all you have to do is be respectful of others. People like Turd demand respect and tolerance, but only if it agrees with them.

That's bullshit and you know it.

Last time I checked Martin Luther King day is a federal holiday that's not up to schools to decide. Personally I feel it's a gigantic waste of time. I don't see how shutting down government buildings is a tribute to the man.

In response to your other post no schools should not endorse affirmative action. As for homosexuality and women's rights I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying schools should force women to wear burkas or stay in the kitchen while gays are sealed up in the don't ask don't tell closet? Minorities, Women, Homsexuals should all have equal rights just as everyone should. Special benefits? No, but equal treatment yes. Just as religious people should not get special benefits with moments of silence and such other non-sense. Attendance at school is mandatory and a prayer session held by the school is forcing religion onto the children. They are at school to learn and during class hours that is all they should be concerned with. They can save their prayers for before and after class.

Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2009, 09:23:00 PM »
My point is why in your opinion, should schools be allowed to support a gay and lesbian day, but not a Jewish day?  Both situations would include only a few and exclude many.
A moment of silence includes everybody, it excludes nobody. It sounds like you're saying don't ask, don't tell should apply to religion. If you don't like a certain people you're called a racist, if you don't like gays you're a homophobe, what do you call someone is a religion hater?
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Offline MediumSexy

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2009, 09:38:56 PM »
what do you call someone is a religion hater?

An atheist. (and that, in most cases, is just as annoying as a bible thumper.)

Seriously, it's the ones who have to tout their religion (or lack thereof) in every place at every time from every mountaintop that get on my nerves.

(Speaking of extreme, check out this video. And before someone says it, yes, I realize it's a joke, but I seriously know atheists that are this bad in real life.)
http://www.break.com/index/door_to_door_atheists_bother_mormons.html
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Offline Niki Heber

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2009, 09:53:02 PM »
wow... this conversation went very sour very quickly.

please, if you will, take my hand and i will direct you to one fundamental said in the very first post here...

Quote
So how do you stop the can of worms from getting started? Easy, don't go down that slippery slope; no prayer in public schools.

let me bold a wonderful part:
Quote
don't go down that slippery slope

hey guys, guess what, you have all been sliding faster and faster down the slippery slope.  it went from a conversation about religion to discussing gay pride month and martin luther king. you have all done the EXACT thing that the original post said would happen.  congratulations... you are predictable.

religion has always been a topic that will never have a clear winner, no matter how you guys want to argue for it.  nobody here is going to say "you know what?  you're right."  there's a really funny word that describes this, but i can't remember what it is.

wise men know when they are in a pissing contest.  and even wiser men know to get out of it as fast as possible. 

stop feeding troll posts (from both sides of the issue) and just let the thread die peacefully.  what started as a rather comical clip on the topic has turned into something bad.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 09:55:07 PM by Niki Heber »
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2009, 10:25:09 PM »
Wow, someone actually predicted that people would use examples to illustrate their point? That is genius. If you read, the conversation was about inclusion vs exclusion siting MLK day and Gay parades as examples. The conversation never was about those things. The humorous thing to me is how intolerant people are of others and then are the first to scream intolerance at another. Why do people care so much about what others do if it doesn't affect them? If you have a moment pray or don't pray, your choice. Be straight or gay your choice. Be left wing or right wing, your choice. Root for the Yankees or root against the Yankees, your choice. Just be respectful and earn respect. If you don't lime your neighbor, you should move, not force him to move, it's your choice. I don't think anybody is pissing or trolling, but you don't have to read.(make it your choice.) the rest of us can carry on our conversation. Even those who disagree can find some common ground.
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2009, 10:34:50 PM »
For the record, it's not only atheists that hate on religion. Different sects do it to each other. All the haters are still bigots in my opinion. The majority doesn't tolerate racial, sex, or orientation bashing, so why is religion bashing ok?
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Offline Turd Ferguson

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2009, 12:02:34 AM »
Cite one example where I bashed religion in this thread. Please.

Offline Daddy

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2009, 04:51:03 AM »
I want to walk into one of these school prayer sessions with a shirt that says "Those that believe in god are morons" and call it freedom of speech. I also want to bring my 6 foot tall sign that says the same thing, as well as a boombox that repeats it over and over as loud as it can play. We'll call it "Daddy's religion". Since I am free to excercise my religion in a public school, there shouldn't be a problem with that, right?

Wouldn't that be something? The point is, Religion belongs in your home and in church. Do not force me to listen to you as you pray to god, as you give god all your glory for all your hard work, while you pray to him and ask him why the bad things keep happening to you, etc. I don't want to hear it. If I can hear you praying in public, then you are offending me.

/end devil's advocate speech

While I can understand that people want to practice their religion as much as they can, there needs to be an understanding that your religion is your own, not everyone elses. I can bite my tongue when someone prays before a meal or starts talking about their belief system, just as I can walk away. The problem is that not everyone is as tolerant as I am. So where does this leave us? Exactly where we are now as a society. We're in limbo, and there will eventually be either common ground or a war.
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2009, 08:28:02 AM »
Daddy in your example I agree somewhat. Some represents your freedom while some of that would go towards disrespectful. At the same time, those praying should be respectful as well. A loud, obnoxious prayer would be disrespectful as well. That's why a moment of silence could be used by anybody. It's harder to be disrespectful and easier to find common ground in silence. 
  On a side question, why are people so vocal about not giving religions tolerance in schools, yet in the work place the government has a strong presence in protecting workplace religion? It seems hypocritical to me.
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2009, 08:32:48 AM »
Cite one example where I bashed religion in this thread. Please.
cite one example where someone said Michigan/Turd bashed religion in this thread. Please.
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Offline Turd Ferguson

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2009, 10:44:31 AM »
You kept responding to my posts implying that I was one who hated religion.

Offline Hunter_Hearst_Hobbit

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2009, 11:12:39 AM »
I lived in a very tiny TN town growing up. Every morning, we'd get whatever announcements (High School Football/Basketball scores, upcoming events, etc.), say the Pledge, and finally have a moment of silence.

While I consider myself a Christian, the moment of silence generally granted me a little extra time to finish whatever assignment I was working on. I wouldn't, and still don't, care if the person next to me was praying to Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, Buddha, or Zeus. The moment of silence gave me just a little time off from class.

I felt the exact same way about the Channel One broadcasts.

I'm now ten years removed from High School and have never given a moment of silence another thought. It just doesn't feel that important to me one way or another. Of all the things to get into an argument about, this debate is low on the list.

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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2009, 07:57:45 PM »
You kept responding to my posts implying that I was one who hated religion.
I was speaking in generalities, but honestly you do come across as abrasive towards religion.
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Offline Daddy

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 03:47:10 PM »
No worries; My beliefs are my own, and my post was meant to simply highlight the difference of opinion and make people think ;)  There is always a proverbial line in the sand, and that line is drawn at different points for different people. It is constantly shifting as society's ideals and morals evolve. One of these days it's going to be put to a vote, and this single subject could force cival war 2... I think it's its best if people keep their belief to themselves and practice what they believe on their own time and in their own home/church.
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Offline SmartAssAssassin

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2009, 10:05:34 PM »
i know its been a while since anyone has posted on this, but its late and i cant sleep, so as i read over this, i got to thinking:

From what i can tell of the users on this site (and believe me ive seen many) and more specifically the users commenting on this post, were all pretty resonable minded people trying to stay as respectful as possible, while still proving our point. With that said, if this applies to anyone and they would be willing to answer......

What, if anything, bothers one side so much? Let me elaborate.

Those who feel Prayer time SHOULD be allowed in Public School: What would be so wrong in outlawing it? If, as has been mentioned, it was allowed to be practiced unofficially before or after school hours, or during lunch or something, is that enough to appease you?  What if that wasnt allowed? Doesnt it make sense that something specific like religion should be reserved for houses of worship or services, where it can be really focused on 100%?

Those who feel prayer time SHOULD NOT be allowed in Public School, same question, why? Does it really bother anyone THAT MUCH that they may have to sit for a few moments and put up with something they dont agree with or believe in? Besides the momentary annoyance, isnt it safe to say there would be no further issues? What if prayer time was allowed before or after school hours, would it be an issue because it was still on school grounds?

Personally, i dont really care either way. Im more apt to saying Prayer should be ok in Public Schools, at the very least in a personal moment of silence/expression type fashion. However, Daddy's expample of "Daddys Religion" (whichm BTW, i will totally join if i ever abandon Catholicism) really got me thinking. I can honestly say i WOULD be somewhat offended if Daddy (sorry Daddy your just gonna hafta be my example here) practiced his "religion"
 But why should i be?
is it physically hurting me? No.
Is it Daddy's personal expression? yes.
Should i just be able to ignore it and continue on? Definatley.
Could I? Im not sure
Should i some day practice the "Daddy's a Dummy" religion, could Daddy just accept that? I dunno.
Im being reminded that, as this thread has moved along, saying and doing are two totally different things. It would be nice to come to one final solution, but i dont think there is one because it looks like no side will be happy. I mean, be defination alone, Pub-lic means Pub-lic: its for everyone, if you dont want to be in Pub-lic (insert Ron White off refrence), go be in private (your house, your car, a boat, w/e) With that said, the idea of Prayer in Public offends some people, others it doesnt. Those against it feel being in Public means they shouldnt have to deal with it; those not against it feel that people who dont like it should leave. Both sides, in the interest of the defination of Public, feel they have a right to do what they choose in said public place.

None of this even accounts for the moment of silence. What if people dont want to be silent? should that be accounted for? What if someone wants to make a whole lotta noise, and it disrupts those who wanted silence. Are the silent people supposed to try to ignore the noise? (it could be impossible in some cases) Are the people who want to make noise expected to do what they desire in silence? (same problem, it could be impossible.

I know this got kinda unorganized, but i guess you can just consider this my own persoanl 2 cents on this thread and the whole idea in general. I dont know where the hell i actually am on the topic. But i do know this: somebody mentioned something along the lines of debates like this potentially leading to a civil war 2:

1) Its extremely possible
2) The first Civil War, whether its initial intentions or not, would result in the outlawing of an uncivilized practice and the start of a nations attempt to show equality toward all peoples of all races.

People were dying and suffering because of slavery, en masse. This bickering over religion has suffering, and im sure there have been deaths about it, but im also pretty sure it hasnt reached the level of cruelty slavery and segregation ever did. Its going to be a damn shame if this country should ever be torn apart again over a topic so petty.

Dave

*EDIT* Im COMPLETELY aware someone may come back and disagree with me considering this a "petty" topic. Its late now and im actually tired, so sorry, but i dont care.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 10:16:29 PM by SmartAssAssassin »

Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2009, 08:09:22 AM »
Very good and thoughtful post. The bigger issue to me with all of this is keeping both congress and organized religion out of the schools. Of course there will be some bleed over since government and religion deeply intertwine. We elect school officials and hire principals to run them, we need to let them. Let the school districts decide whether it wants a moment of silence or a dress code or any other rule for that matter. Government and religion both need to stop trying to force their will on everything.
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Offline Hunter_Hearst_Hobbit

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2009, 09:54:55 AM »
A lot of the issue seems to boil down to a form of discomfort. Normally, presented as a discomfort in the application of rights. "I have the right to pray in a public school!" "The Government runs the schools. If the school endorses prayer, then the separation of church and state starts to dissolve."

Honestly, a Christian would probably be offended by a Muslim prayer. And in truth, a moment of silence doesn't truly endorse any other type of prayer except for the Christian prayer. In my experience, you don't really have enough time to say anything except, "Please Baby Jesus, help me pass this test." You aren't going to be able to place a prayer rug down and bow before God. And if you do, a Christian will probably be offended by such a display. After all, how do we know that this kid with the prayer rug isn't planning on putting deadly chemicals in the lunch food. The prayer in public schools can only be described as a form of appeasement from the Government.

A large majority of America's population still endorse some form of Christianity. By saying, no prayer in public schools, you're going to offend a possibly large voter base. But by allowing prayer in public schools through a moment of silence, you end up making no one happy. People are always going to feel it's not enough or it's way too much. Christians will argue that even through a moment of silence you're not doing enough to honor God. And people who want church/state separate will say that too much is being done.

As a Christian, I feel the issue to be unimportant. While I'm in the minority, allow me to explain. I don't need the Government to set aside a time for me to pray. I don't want the Government dictating what I can and cannot do. If I want to pray in a public school, I'm going to pray. My prayers are normally discrete and don't bother anyone. I'm not speaking out loud during a prayer. If someone gets offended by my prayer, screw 'em. I'm not mandating the government give me this time and I'm also not mandating someone watch me pray. If their skin is too thin to not allow me to pray, then reasonable conversation left the building a long time ago.

I can pray before a meal, before a test, after a test, in study hall, or even during a lecture. I don't have to close my eyes to speak to God. I might bow my head in respect, but what I do is between me and my God. And it's because of that position that I don't feel prayer in public schools is that big of an issue. When it becomes illegal to pray in public, I have a problem. But giving me a minute to pray to God is simply trying to appease someone. I don't need the school to set aside a minute.
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2009, 10:30:34 AM »
I'm surprised that you would be offended by a Muslim prayer. The issue as I stated before is not whether the goverment should endorse or ban prayer in public schools. The government should stay out of it. Let the school districts decide. All schools don't have to be the same.  I think you are way out of touch with the way people view this. I do believe a lot of people would be happy with a moment of silence, I don't think very many Christians are offended by Muslims, I also don't think Portland, Me and Portland, Or schools have to have the same rules mandated by federal government.
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Offline Hunter_Hearst_Hobbit

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2009, 12:30:01 PM »
Piper: We obviously hold a similar belief. (The government should stay out of it.) I do not get offended by anything, and worded myself rather poorly in regards to "A Christian would probably be offended...". My apologies.

In a previous post, I did state that I don't care who anyone prays to. Regardless, I stated something that was incorrect on my part and wish to make amends for an incorrect statement. I should have known better than to make such a broad generalized statement.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:35:13 PM by Hunter_Hearst_Hobbit »
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Offline Daddy

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2009, 05:18:26 AM »
SmartASss hit it on the head: Where do you draw the line?

I am not for the decision being left in the hands of the local school districts or principals. The idea is that there should be a wide spread decision; not a scenario where students in Orange county California are required to sit for a 30 second moment of silence, that is unless they are in the city limits of LA, or in a Residintial subsection rated higher than 3...Too many hands in the pot creates too many lawsuits. The state of California can hand down a decision. If it really bothers me that much, I'll start looking for job in another state. That or I'll join a movement to replace the elected officials and file a motion to have it struck down.

We all have a choice in what we do and how we react to things. We can be level headed, or we can cause drama. The unfortunate thing is that if it is not us causing drama, someone else will...
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2009, 09:53:41 AM »
Where do you draw the line on government interference? Next the government will want to pick what classes are mandated, which sports schools participate in, which clubs/activities schools have, and a national dress code. 
  Local officials  are the best to make the decisions because if they do poorly, they can be voted out. If congress makes decisions, people are pretty powerless to change things. The power belongs to the people through the elected officials.
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Offline Daddy

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2009, 12:07:50 PM »
Actually, I disagree. The congressmen who wrote/sponsered the UIGEA (anti online gambling bill) lost their re-election bids not even 6 months after attaching that POS bill to the Safe Port Act to get it to pass. They worked the system to impose a rightwing agenda item and paid for it with their seats. National government, imho, is wasiwr to course correct thaat local governemnt. It's easier to swing a national or statewide election due than it is to swing a local county or regional state congresss election due to demographics. Look at the bible belt if you want to disagree.
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2009, 12:16:02 PM »
What I meant if people in Illinois don't like what the congressmen in Utah and Arizona are forcing them into, they're powerless to stop it. If the locals don't like the super, they can recall him or vote him out next election.
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Offline tutoman

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Re: Prayer in Public Schools (Just had to vent)
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2010, 12:45:31 AM »
I know this is an old topic, but i kind of want to put my 5 cents here, since i come from a christian country and all.

Chile started as a merchant region for Spain, the most catholic country in the world, so by definition we got teached how to love god and pray every night and etc. Sure, people nowdays have started to take their own aproaches to the subject, but a generation or two before mine, there was no place for the words ''god doesn't exist'' in any kid's mouth. Still, a lot of non-catholic schools impart ''religion'' as a subject, and when they mean ''religion'' they mean ''catholic religion'', bible study if you will. They also have catholic figures such as the crusifix and the virgin mary on the classroom, and they make special celebrations for christmass and easter, but not for any other religious holyday.

Heck, to go even further, two weeks ago a friend of mine had to spend a night in jail because he was shouting on a megaphone ''there is no god, science is the only real alternative to progress'' in the city's main plaza, as he is that kind of activist. Then again, a priest goes to that very same place to preach, with a microphone and amplifier, the word of god.

Religion, as a whole, is a very delicate thing to talk about, or discuss as a whole, since most people will always think that what they believe is the right thing. Once people comprehend the fact that everyone might be right AND wrong at the same time, and people start respecting each other's point of view, we might have the chance to say a proper conversation about religion can be achieved. But then again, when that happens, i don't see people arguing about anything, so yeah.