Author Topic: Design a New Card!  (Read 9178 times)

Online CreedP

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Design a New Card!
« on: August 20, 2008, 08:52:43 AM »
Something that's been bothering me a lot lately about the environment is that there's still not a compelling reason to build an unbranded deck Smackdown instead of Raw.  King Interferes is a powerful card, it takes a hit from Playing By The Rules (+10F), which admittedly can be countered by Frankie Takes Ho-llywood (we'll make that card good yet!  heh).  You can get +2HS from the Raw Pre-match, and PRS isn't totally nerfed as a casual theme... but what does SD really offer?

Some card draw from PSDS
Suicide Lariat, which requires you don't get reversed from Arsenal
Atomic Knee Drop, high end good move but not always easy to hit
Face Stretch, cute for BFM and other combo decks, but easily reversible in general

So what would SD need to offer a counter point?  Rather than give another reversal, what about an offensive option?  Perhaps a High Risk, to reflect the old 'high flyer' days of Smackdown programming...  so let's play some fill-in-the-blanks here:

(title)
Mid-match High Risk (+?) (/?)
(Text?)
When you have High-Flying Style in your Ring, (effect?)
Unique
F: (?)  D:  (?)   SV: (?)   SmackDown logo

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Offline Dre

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 09:10:55 AM »
Smackdown gets Michelle McCool, Break It Out, and Beginnings. That's kind of badass.

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 09:23:44 AM »
Right, but McCool is pretty much an 'all or nothing' build.  There's a lot of non-yellow-card hate in this set, so the nerfs to B4 and Beginnings run even deeper.  Besides which, a major theme of this project is to make Aggro a viable option for a wrestling game (imagine that! heh) and not a sucker's bet to see how much damage you can eat from your opponent's redwall.  ;)

Thus the idea for an offensive Mid-match maneuver to bring Smackdown up a notch, something far better than say Human Suplex Machine.  :)

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Offline MediumSexy

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 09:36:54 AM »
To me, the single most important card that has convinced me to choose "RAW" over "Smackdown" in every deck I've done so with has been "Undermine the Competition".  That card is gamebreaking...

Come up with something similar (or similarly gamebreaking) and you'll have the key...

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Offline dilbert505

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 10:02:48 AM »
An effect I'd like to see, though it may not be well-balanced, is "Your Smackdown-branded cards can only be reversed by cards with D:0, and cannot be reversed by Overshot Your Mark." No Volley This for Beginnings, Diving Takedown, or Breakity, no Elbow/RotM/Manager on the Face Stretch, no Overshot for the Suicide Lariat, and if your opponent's Fan Favorite, he now has to either have a lot of D:0 reversals, or spread out his Great to be Back Here In over a whole deck full of targets.

As to how to implement the ability, you could have it as the effect of the card you planned, or make it a separate card, possibly either a Backstage or a Pre-Match.
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Offline MediumSexy

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 10:11:18 AM »
An effect I'd like to see, though it may not be well-balanced, is "Your Smackdown-branded cards can only be reversed by cards with D:0, and cannot be reversed by Overshot Your Mark." ...

Make that Non Superstar Specific Smackdown-branded cards and that'll take down the "brokeness" level quite a bit.

Backstage Area card would be awesome, but that's my two cents worth...
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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 10:51:31 AM »
An effect I'd like to see, though it may not be well-balanced, is "Your Smackdown-branded cards can only be reversed by cards with D:0, and cannot be reversed by Overshot Your Mark." No Volley This for Beginnings, Diving Takedown, or Breakity, no Elbow/RotM/Manager on the Face Stretch, no Overshot for the Suicide Lariat, and if your opponent's Fan Favorite, he now has to either have a lot of D:0 reversals, or spread out his Great to be Back Here In over a whole deck full of targets.

Let's take this step-by-step...  first off, the non-Superstar-specific part suggested by the Champ is a good addition, as that involves a truckload of Velocity/Insx/Divas cards to check through, heh.  Second, taking out Volley This doesn't accomplish as much in R4 play as you might think, with a ton of other reversals like Stop Trying to Hit Me and Hit Me pop up.

Next, Overshot - one, it IS D:0, sorry dude (check the SS3 MRP, its just +# damage in the text), but High-Flying Style negates the damage, plus you can use An Irresistable Force to blank your opponent's reversal text.  (yes, I know all these things aren't immediately obvious when looking at the set, that's why I'm helping to paint the picture, heh)

One issue, though, is that making blue cards harder to reverse goes against the major theme of the set, which is making Aggro viable.  One of the biggest complaints I'd heard towards GAB (and with Revo cards in AA) was the Action (and Antic) combo decks, and how - somehow - a WRESTLING game had been turned into an Action game, where maneuver cards were almost too risky to attempt, lest you face a wall of pain red.  The idea is to swing the pendulum back toward a move-based offense, and my concern is that making blue cards more playable would be counterproductive and result in more unpleasant games and NPEs.

Back to Ric's point about Undermine, what if we add some anti-Raw reversal text to this card, so no King Interferes/Undermine viability?

Think big on this one, guys, one strong card can make a real difference in choosing between Raw and SD when you don't have superstar-specifics to force your choice...  :)

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Offline dilbert505

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 11:04:57 AM »
An effect I'd like to see, though it may not be well-balanced, is "Your Smackdown-branded cards can only be reversed by cards with D:0, and cannot be reversed by Overshot Your Mark." No Volley This for Beginnings, Diving Takedown, or Breakity, no Elbow/RotM/Manager on the Face Stretch, no Overshot for the Suicide Lariat, and if your opponent's Fan Favorite, he now has to either have a lot of D:0 reversals, or spread out his Great to be Back Here In over a whole deck full of targets.

Let's take this step-by-step...  first off, the non-Superstar-specific part suggested by the Champ is a good addition, as that involves a truckload of Velocity/Insx/Divas cards to check through, heh.  Second, taking out Volley This doesn't accomplish as much in R4 play as you might think, with a ton of other reversals like Stop Trying to Hit Me and Hit Me pop up.

Agreed on that addition. I figured that part was negotiable, as the real intent was to convince people to play non-branded superstars Smackdown. As for other reversals, yeah, I haven't playtested any of your cards yet, but I figured there were more options available to reverse with. I'm just trying to think of things that will let Smackdown branded cards get through without making them completely irreversible.

Next, Overshot - one, it IS D:0, sorry dude (check the SS3 MRP, its just +# damage in the text), but High-Flying Style negates the damage, plus you can use An Irresistable Force to blank your opponent's reversal text.  (yes, I know all these things aren't immediately obvious when looking at the set, that's why I'm helping to paint the picture, heh)

I know it's D:0, Creed. That's why I specifically exempted it from the list of applicable reversals. Would it have been clearer if I wrote that part as "Can only be reversed by D:0 reversals that are not Overshot Your Mark"? Because that was what the text I wrote was saying, unless my grasp of the English language is not quite as thorough as I think it is. The goal is to let these cards go off, not to avoid taking damage.

One issue, though, is that making blue cards harder to reverse goes against the major theme of the set, which is making Aggro viable.  One of the biggest complaints I'd heard towards GAB (and with Revo cards in AA) was the Action (and Antic) combo decks, and how - somehow - a WRESTLING game had been turned into an Action game, where maneuver cards were almost too risky to attempt, lest you face a wall of pain red.  The idea is to swing the pendulum back toward a move-based offense, and my concern is that making blue cards more playable would be counterproductive and result in more unpleasant games and NPEs.

That is, of course, the problem. It's also the problem with trying to make Smackdown better, as IMO both of Smackdown's best cards, and three of the best 5 or so (Beginning & Break, Diving Takedown, Face Stretch, and Suicide Lariat) are Actions. Nerfing Actions nerfs Smackdown even more than it already has been, and I don't think there's any one maneuver card that fixes Smackdown's problems. Though again, your issue seems to be with pain reversals, and hey, the ability I suggested (and others of that ilk) deal pretty handily with those.

Back to Ric's point about Undermine, what if we add some anti-Raw reversal text to this card, so no King Interferes/Undermine viability?

Think big on this one, guys, one strong card can make a real difference in choosing between Raw and SD when you don't have superstar-specifics to force your choice...  :)

CREED

I'll try to come up with a few other ideas/cards, but I still think there's a lot to be said for my first idea, if we don't just dismiss it out of hand.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 11:07:02 AM by dilbert505 »
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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 11:33:01 AM »
Ah, didn't catch the Overshot bit in the original text, sorry.   :-\

It's a thought, and perhaps could be a Smackdown Pre-match or something.  I've thought about trying to work Vickie Guerrero into a card somewhere, with the flavor text "Excuse me!  EXCUSE ME!" or something, heh.  Hmm, what about something like a SD Pre-match that limits your opponent's reversals to non-Superstar-specific Smackdown maneuvers (could also make Diving Bulldog somewhat playable, haha, but could give people a reason to play DT as a maneuver for a change, heh).  Soooo... what about something like this?

Backed by SmackDown! GM Vickie Guerrero
Pre-match Event
Cannot be packed by Eddie Guerrero.
Your opponent cannot play non-Superstar-specific non-D:0 reversals (or Overshot Your Mark) to your non-Superstar-specific SmackDown! maneuvers.
Your Superstar Value is +1.
(more effect(s)?)
Unique
F: 0     D: 0
"Excuse me!  EXCUSE ME!" - Vickie Guerrero

This could also prevent Backlash! reversing certain older cards like Flying Body Lock, for those who want to dust off the relics and play the unplayable cards, heh.  And it will boost the SD Mid-match High Risk as well!  Also provides a slight nerf to Manager Interferes, Outside Interference, King Interferes.. and that works for me, too.  :)

Thoughts?

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« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 06:47:27 AM by CreedP »
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Offline Randy_Trash

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 11:36:08 AM »
I like that card a lot...or at least my Cena & fan created AJ does.  However here's another idea for a card, just couldn't think of a name.

[Unknown Card Title]
Mid-match High-risk & High-Risk
When played as a manuever your opponent can't play a reversal to this manuever unless he first discards # of in cards from his hand where # is equal to your superstar value minimum of 6.
If this card is reversed from your opponent;s arsenal you can discard half your hand and continue your turn.
RMS Symbol
Unique
10F 15D 2SV

I figured making it playable as long as you had the fortitude was worth it since alot of SD's stars do a good amount of high flying.  Wasn't sure of what number to make the minimum discard number so went with a fair number.  
I also firgured that allowing you to discard half your hand to conitnue your turn if it was overturned from damage was something different.  The problem with that seems to be the stun value of 2...but I kept it in my idea.

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 11:38:14 AM »
could always call it "Laying the Smackdown" or give it the TB treatment for "Layeth the Smackdown"

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 01:11:01 PM »
Latino Cheat + Feud vs. 5 listed superstars = death as well.

Why the +1 SSV?  Is there any superstar that gets slammed by that besides Rey Jr & Chavo?  Or is that just kinda like being bumped up the card?

What can reverse a Turn 1 Face Stretch that is allowed by this card and still regularly played?
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Offline JaysonPhenix

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 01:17:36 PM »
Latino Cheat + Feud vs. 5 listed superstars = death as well.

Why the +1 SSV?  Is there any superstar that gets slammed by that besides Rey Jr & Chavo?  Or is that just kinda like being bumped up the card?

What can reverse a Turn 1 Face Stretch that is allowed by this card and still regularly played?

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Offline MediumSexy

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 01:18:23 PM »
Return BASH for Scotty's WORM

Reach for the Ropes

No Sell Maneuver


possibly a few more...
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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2008, 01:28:28 PM »
Latino Cheat + Feud vs. 5 listed superstars = death as well.
That can be avoided another way, though, perhaps by preventing Latino Cheat from changing his ability or something.  But good point!

Quote
Why the +1 SSV?  Is there any superstar that gets slammed by that besides Rey Jr & Chavo?  Or is that just kinda like being bumped up the card?
That's exactly what it is.  But it can go in lieu of better effects...

One to kick around is the text on Product Endorsements TB, but with a Smackdown card instead of a Face card (the 'next card gets +2 Pre-match Capacity' thing).

Quote
What can reverse a Turn 1 Face Stretch that is allowed by this card and still regularly played?
Hmm, good point.  It almost turns anyone playing Smackdown into BFM with it.  See, this is why I like good discussion on the cards!  :)  We'll have to think about that issue, but that can be resolved, I'm certain...

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Offline BigPimpin

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 01:41:51 PM »
What this card would mean is that the push away from Heel and Raw would be very strong, as neither can very well stop a Turn 1 Face Stretch easily without fort reduction of reversals or Jimmy Hart.

If we choose to leave it as is, maybe the secondary effect could be somewhat mild (opponent discards 1 card in order to play Raw or Run-in?).  The pre-match thing is kinda cool, too, but combining that with PSDS would mean an essential +2SHS, which may or may not be negated by Old School Psychology, which should see a major push from R4 anyway.

If anyone still has the old Raw Deal DB, maybe we can pull a list of non-SS Smackdown moves that would be affected by this card so we can look at all angles.
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Offline King Jimmeh

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 03:41:57 PM »
Ask and you shall receive:

Human Suplex Machine   
Mid-match Grapple
7/7
SD
"Can only be played after a successfully played maneuver with the word ""suplex"" in the title.
Cannot be reversed by the card titled Backlash!
When successfully played, search your Arsenal for a card with the word ""suplex"" in the title, reveal it to your opponent, put it into your hand, and shuffle your Arsenal."

Flying Lariat
High Risk + Strike   
6/9
**
SD!
Can only be played after a successfully played Strike maneuver.

Suicide Lariat
High Risk
3/8
SD!
Can only be played after a successfully played maneuver.

Atomic Knee Drop   
High Risk
17/13
**
SD!
"Can only be played after a successfully played 5D or greater maneuver.
Can only be reversed from your opponent's Arsenal.
When successfully played, you may put 1 card from your Ringside pile into your hand."

Running Clothesline (TB)
Strike
12/13
* *
SmackDown!
This card is -7F when played after the card titled Irish Whip.

Flying Takedown   
High Risk + Grapple   
4/6
*
SmackDown!
Can only be played after a successfully played Grapple maneuver.

Flying Choke Hold   
High Risk + Submission   
2/4
SmackDown!
"Can only be played after a successfully played Submission maneuver.
You cannot play the card titled Maintain Hold immediately after this card."

Face Stretch
Submission
8/8
SmackDown!
"When your Fortitude Rating is 7F or less, this card is -8F and -8D.
When successfully played, you may put 1 Face card from your Ring area into your hand."

Missle Shoulder Block   
High Risk + Strike   
6/8
* *   
SmackDown!
Can only be played after the card titled Irish Whip.

Key Lock
Submission + Submission
7/7
SmackDown!
"Cannot be packed by Female Superstars.
This card is +3D when played by a Tag Team Superstar."

Flying Head Scissors (TB)
High Risk   
6/7
SmackDown!
"When your Fortitude Rating is less than your opponent's Fortitude Rating, this card is -4F.
Can only be played after a successfully played 2D or greater maneuver.
This card is +1D for each card in your Ring area with the SmackDown! logo."

Diving Bulldog
High Risk
3/7
*
SmackDown!
Can only be played if you reversed a card to end your opponent's last turn and this is the first card played of your turn.

Inverted Snake Eyes
Grapple   
6/8
*
SmackDown!
"Can only be played after a successfully played maneuver or the card titled Throw Into the Corner Turnbuckle.
Cannot be reversed by the card titled Backlash!
When successfully played, draw up to 2 cards."

Flying Mare   
High Risk   
2/5
SmackDown!
"Can only be played after a successfully played maneuver with Stun Value.
If an effect your opponent controls removes this card from your Ring area, put 1 card from your Ringside pile into your hand."

Diving Takedown
High Risk / Action   
10/10
SmackDown!   
"As a maneuver, can only be played after a successfully played maneuver.
As an action, this card is -5F and -10D, discard this card, draw 1 card, and your opponent discards 1 card."

Quick Follow Through
High Risk
1/4   
SmackDown!
"Can only be played after a successfully played maneuver.
When this card is in your Ring area, as a Mid-match action, you may put this card into your Ringside pile and draw 1 card."

Roll Up
High Risk / Reversal: Special
18/2
SmackDown!   
"As a maneuver, can only be played after a successfully played 4D or greater maneuver.
As a reversal, reverse the card titled Back Body Drop and end your opponent's turn.
When successfully played, if your Fortitude Rating is at least 20F greater than your opponent's Fortitude Rating, OR if you have at least 5 cards more in your hand than your opponent, you win the game via Pinfall victory."

Flying Body Lock   
Submission + High Risk / Reversal: Special
13/7
*
SmackDown!
"As a maneuver, can only be played after a successfully played 5D or greater maneuver.
As a reversal, reverse any card played after a Set-up card and end your opponent's turn."

Offline BigPimpin

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 04:53:38 PM »
The two things that stick out to me:

1. Roll Up is pretty nasty to get that bonus. 

2. The worst case I can think of is People's Champ at this time.  And Benoit, if he gets Rabid down.  And Mysterio.  But even then, it's reliant on opponents not overturning on moves, because the cards still can be reversed.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say, depending on the Mysterio reword, that this would be BAD for Mysterio, because chances are he's not going to win with these moves unless he manages to do the roll-up thing.
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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 06:09:36 PM »
Roll Up will be less playable once we work out the details of the new World Champions anti-Win condition card, but its still worth noting.

People's Champ could be an issue, its no thing to add his name next to Eddie's.  Mysterio could be added as well.  Not looking to make great decks broken, heh, just want to give good decks a reason to play Smackdown and this is an excellent way to go.

Back to the Mid-match maneuver, I like the first idea but was hoping to find something a little more playable at lower Fortitudes.  Maybe a 6/8 or something in that range.  The mega-chain type effect could be good too, though I'd want to cap that before a Smackdown Evolution or Heat Seekers deck make it nearly irreversible, heh.  Super-belt Hogan ftw and such.  ;)

Any other 'extra effect' ideas for our Mid-match SD move of DOOOOOOM?

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Offline dilbert505

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 06:23:42 PM »
Idea:

"Once per turn, you may remove one card in your Ring from the game to make your next non-unique maneuver Multi." (IOW, turn every non-permanent card in your Ring into Rocket Buster.)

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Offline Daeva

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 11:30:35 PM »
The non-D:0 reversal restriction seems pretty good, but it doesn't sit well with me as far as Face Stretch is concerned. Practically guaranteeing 8F to the SD player unless someone switches off of Revolution of the Mind strictly to counter this doesn't feel in the theme of the set.

It's fine, however, if Face Stretch is the 8/8 version, so how about making the last bit "...to your non-Superstar-specific non-D: 0 SmackDown! maneuvers"?
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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 06:52:19 AM »
Good call, sir!  There are no other SD D:0 maneuvers (well, The Special Kiss but that's specific, heh) so that works well.  That gives us:

Backed by SmackDown! GM Vickie Guerrero
Pre-match Event
Cannot be packed by Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit.  (People's Champ?)
Your opponent cannot play non-Superstar-specific non-D:0 reversals (or Overshot Your Mark) to your non-Superstar-specific SmackDown! non-D:0 maneuvers.
Your Superstar Value is +1.
(more effect(s)?)
Unique
F: 0     D: 0
"Excuse me!  EXCUSE ME!" - Vickie Guerrero

Now - any thoughts on adding "Your next Pre-match card with a SmackDown! logo gains the text 'Your Pre-match Capacity is increased by 2.'"?
Meanwhile, we still have this, with one possible idea on the table:

(title)
Mid-match High Risk (+?) (/?)
(Text?)
When you have High-Flying Style in your Ring, (effect?)
Unique
F: (?)  D:  (?)   SV: (?)   SmackDown logo

More thoughts?

CREED
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Offline King Jimmeh

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 07:07:12 AM »
Personally I don't see the need to over Vickie with effects, so maybe just the SSV +1 or the added pre-match.

Also if adding Rey to not being able to play it as well works in context, as she was involved in feuds with Benoit and Rey when she was backing Chavo.

Offline chase_breaker

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2008, 02:03:08 AM »
Relaxing on the Top Rope
Mid-match High Risk + Action
Can only be played if you have a card with the smack down logo in your ring area.
Reversals to this card are +2 damage
This card can not be reversed by hybrid reversals or the card titled Elbow to the Face.
Your maneuver cards with the Smackdown logo are considered to be 0F and 8D.
When you have High-Flying Style in your Ring, you may ignore the 8D on this card.
Unique
F: 0  D:  0    SmackDown logo

I'm Trying to Earn a Job Here!
Mid-match High Risk
Can only be played if you are less in fortitude. Your Opponent choses 1 of the following effects. This card can only be reversed from arsenal. Or this card is -7D and considered a strike, if your opponent choses this effect, if the card is reversed he must discard cards equal to the number of Smackdown logo cards in your ring area.
When you have High-Flying Style in your Ring, this card is +1 Damage.
Unique
F: 0  D: 7  SV: (?)   SmackDown logo RMS Logo

Smackdown's Number 1 Curtain Jerker!
Pre-Match/Mid-match High Risk
As a pre-match card this card is considered to be 0F and 0D. At the end of the pre-match, reveal your hand to your opponent, discard any non smackdown logo maneuvers, search your arsenal for the same number of Smackdown branded maneuvers and put them in your hand. Your Smackdown logo maneuvers are considered 0F until you have more than 3F, and the Can only be played after text is removed.
As a mid-match, this card can only be played after a card with the smackdown logo.
When you have High-Flying Style in your Ring, this card is 0F
Unique
F: 5  D:  9   SV: ***   SmackDown logo

There's a couple Ideas... I am sure I'll get bitched at for these but I am just thinking they need a boost.... maybe this might help those superstars that would be great if they could just get in, be played more!
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Offline BigPimpin

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Re: Design a New Card!
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2008, 04:20:15 AM »
Curtain Jerker needs a re-word, methinks. 

For the intended effect, change it to 0F 0D, then add if it's played as a move then it's +5F and +9D.  Otherwise it'd be pretty confusing for someone to start at 9F but really have 0F.
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