Author Topic: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread  (Read 3325 times)

Offline BigPimpin

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2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« on: December 30, 2019, 09:49:14 AM »
As a designer of cards, I usually have a lot of my focus on the top-end of the Raw Deal metagame when comparing and contrasting superstars with one another.  Example - for the Then/Now/Forever set, I asked myself things like "is Pete Dunne Tier 1?", or "what's the optimal Jim Cornette build?".  Every now and again, though, I like to take my focus off of the top of the mountain and see who's at the bottom with no hope of climbing.  That's where I'd like to ask for assistance from the guys and gals that make up the Raw Deal universe.

I'd like you guys and gals to tell me who are, in your opinion, the "bad" superstars in Raw Deal.  Those that, no matter what is done with them, are just not cut out to win matches consistently.  So we can keep this orderly and track able, I'd like everyone to keep the following in mind:

1) I'm looking for between 1 and 3 superstars that, in your opinion, just don't have the ability to "cut it" in Raw Deal these days.  If there's more, put 'em down.

2) Reasons and/or constructive criticism would be helpful so we can understand why the superstar is "bad". 

3) Please keep in mind that personal attacks or other breaches of TCO's rules will not be tolerated.  This is not an excuse to reach out and flame someone on how a superstar is designed.

To give an example, I'll put one down I've had in the back of my head to start this off (and yes I know I'm wordy, you don't have to be as in depth):

Rene Dupree - Despite an early hand advantage through Pre-Match cards like Managed by Fifi and It's Hard Being This Original, if Rene can't take that early advantage into an insurmountable lead, he'll eventually be ground to dust.  Also, AIUU's discard text has lost a lot of power since all Rookie/NXT superstars are immune to it.  Everyone around him does what he does but better - British Bulldog has no pack restriction can take Backlash cards from his Ring as well as Backlash and recover, Latino Cheat can pack the normal compliment of reversals (his restriction is on playing more than one, not packing more than one) and has a superior give-back of searching for cards instead of drawing. 

Looking forward to hear who you think is the bottom of the barrel going into 2020.

The Short List (from comments below):
Rene Dupree
Yokozuna
Honky Tonk Man
Bam Bam Bigelow
Dean Malenko
Emma
Ted DiBiase Jr
MNM
Asuka
Trish Stratus
Lita
Vickie Guerrero
The Revival
The Colons
Gene Snitsky
Paul Heyman
Santino Marella
Viscera
Legion Of Doom
Wade Barrett
Mr. Perfect
Stevie Richards
MVP
Sabu
Team Hell No
Raw Guest Host
Natural Disasters
Muhammad Hassan
The Ultimate Warrior
Sabu
Cactus Jack
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 11:51:01 AM by BigPimpin »
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Online Hogtrail

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2019, 10:26:18 AM »
A while ago I posted my thoughts on Bam Bam Bigelow needing a boost. I'll insert my OG post here:


Let me preface this post by saying that this isn't an attack or criticism of the virtual team or anyone on TCO. This is mearly one players opinion.

I feel like there is no reason to play as Bam Bam Bigelow and he needs help. He's probably the least playable superstar from V4. His superstar ability costs too much for too little. Sure, he gets Million Dollar Corporation support, but those cards don't help him that much compared to the other members. His ability to make Cartwheel an omni reversal is his best quality, but his specific reversal makes cartwheel worse.

There are other superstars that do what he does, only better (Vader, Rusev, RVD, even someone like Big Pappa Pump can discount their cards at much less of a cost). And by the time you have enough stun value in your ring, you probably already have enough Fortitude to play the card anyway. I know Bigelow can discount any CARD, but a lot of actions don't make it into a lot of decks due to the fear of OSWM.

His first maneuver is all but guaranteed to get Restricted Use/Reach Exceeds Your Grasp, if not reversed regularly from hand.

Why restrict his volley maneuvers with Asbury Park? Bookerman has a much more powerful ability to protect his volley moves, and much better support. Bam Bam feels restricted to Tech Drop Kicks, DLB, and a few high risks. It's very hard to get started with him.

Bigelow's specific cards are decent, but not all THAT great, and he doesnt have many.

I think if Bigelow got an ECW Backstage card, it would make his MUCH more playable. He could pack house that hardcore built, discount his Foreign Objects (a lot of which have stun value), then his Ability would help more and earlier, and he wouldn't take non-unique damage to his FO's.

Again, I only bring this up because you guys actually take player feedback into account. And I'm also willing to listen to other players who may have had a successful Bam Bam build.

TL;DR - Other people do Bam Bam better than Bam Bam and I feel there is no reason to choose Bigelow over those superstars.
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Offline CRASHER

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2019, 10:38:41 AM »
Seems a lot of the WWF guys are on this list, eh?
Bam Bam would qualify
Yoko needs some updating
And I felt the same about Honky Tonk Man ....I look at his cards and I wanted to try him....but he doesn't seem to bring much to the table, even with heel cheater being the preferred choice....he's still....eh

I need to look deeper but my first thought is honky
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Offline BigPimpin

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2019, 11:09:48 AM »
Thanks all.  I'm keeping a short list at the top of the thread so we can keep track.
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Offline tutoman

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2019, 12:42:32 PM »
It might be me, but I don't see much reason to build any of the "get things from ringside" decks since Lesnar got his backstage all those years ago. He just outshines other superstars by doing the same thing, but for free and mostly protected.
That brings me to Dean Malenko.

Everytime I get myself to build Dean Malenko, I feel like everything he does could be done easier by Lesnar, with better support and a way better backlash reversal TMF.
Taker recovers stuff from ringside by discarding cards, but he also has much better support and a miriad of builds other than "play psychology".
If you add the fact that other decks don't remove the card plaayed when unsuccessful, I don't see much reason to build the Iceman

Offline Drywall

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2019, 01:11:34 PM »
Who IMO is tough to win a game with?

Emma
Bam Bam Bigelow
Vickie

Who is bottom-tier that just needs a little something?

Ted Jr.
MNM
Asuka
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Offline Drywall

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2019, 01:12:59 PM »
It might be me, but I don't see much reason to build any of the "get things from ringside" decks since Lesnar got his backstage all those years ago. He just outshines other superstars by doing the same thing, but for free and mostly protected.
That brings me to Dean Malenko.

Everytime I get myself to build Dean Malenko, I feel like everything he does could be done easier by Lesnar, with better support and a way better backlash reversal TMF.
Taker recovers stuff from ringside by discarding cards, but he also has much better support and a miriad of builds other than "play psychology".
If you add the fact that other decks don't remove the card plaayed when unsuccessful, I don't see much reason to build the Iceman

WCW Belt helps with not removing as you'll have a Flair logo out via Once a Horseman
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Offline necrobaron75

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2019, 02:00:58 PM »
Always thought Trish Stratus could use more of a boost,especially after OSWM TB.

Lita too,becaus she dies to Your reach exceeds your grasp,another commonly played card

My third choice is:FIX oswm tb,it shuts down a lot of superstars.

Not saying nerf/ban,but toning it down(examples,only triggers on 2nd or greater non mauever card,or take off rms.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 02:09:08 PM by necrobaron75 »
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Offline BigPimpin

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2019, 02:22:14 PM »
Vickie

Drywall, to clarify - do you mean Vickie Guerrero or Victoria here?
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Offline CRASHER

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2019, 02:22:51 PM »
OSWM tb was maybe the first thing on our revisions list, so your hopes are likely there :)

Trish got a pretty big boost with the Mid-Match reversal didn't she? And It's hardly the only one who gets slowed by reach/grasp, it's more an annoyance to play through over an "oh crap my game is lost" , especially if she hits her DDT early
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Offline necrobaron75

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2019, 02:27:33 PM »
But it makes her main strategy now"Get the DDT or lose",which shoehorns her into one deck concept
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Offline Drywall

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2019, 03:05:46 PM »
Vickie

Drywall, to clarify - do you mean Vickie Guerrero or Victoria here?

Guerrero. Victoria is just fine.
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Offline Drywall

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2019, 03:07:31 PM »
Always thought Trish Stratus could use more of a boost,especially after OSWM TB.

Lita too,becaus she dies to Your reach exceeds your grasp,another commonly played card

My third choice is:FIX oswm tb,it shuts down a lot of superstars.

Not saying nerf/ban,but toning it down(examples,only triggers on 2nd or greater non mauever card,or take off rms.

Trish? She got a HUGE boost in Virtual.

I don't anything wrong at all with Lita or X-Treme Diva.
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Offline darkdestiny91

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2019, 04:13:09 PM »
I’ll echo what I said in the Virtual 10 thread. I’m nominating The Revival. Also, I’m seconding MNM, just because they don’t have access to backlash reversals, which I think they either needs a bigger boost than what they already have in terms of support, or let them pack the necessary reversals.

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2019, 04:44:12 PM »
Here are a few more I think could use a boost:

Carlito & Primo Colon - They get a free move... not very special anymore imo. Daniel Bryan does it better with even better support.

Gene Snitsky - I think this has more to do with Heat needing a boost than anything.

Paul Heyman - that 50 card arsenal really limits him.

Santino Marella - I've never built him, but he doesn't seem too good.

Viscera - He's missing something...

There are also a few superstars who I feel have no reason to be built over other superstars. Why build Wade Barrett when Samoa Joe exists? Why build the Legion of Doom over The Road Warriors? If that's off topic, feel free to ignore.
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Offline Naitchng

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2019, 05:37:47 PM »
I’ll echo what I said in the Virtual 10 thread. I’m nominating The Revival. Also, I’m seconding MNM, just because they don’t have access to backlash reversals, which I think they either needs a bigger boost than what they already have in terms of support, or let them pack the necessary reversals.

Totally agree on the revival, did an in depth analysis on them on my deck review, can't really be bother to explain it pt by pt again, link to thread is below:
http://teamcanadaonline.net///index.php/topic,18876.0.html

Also will there be a erranta on Legion of Doom? The discard 4 reds to reverse a tmf is just dumb. There is totally no reason to form them over road warriors unless u want a challenge, til today I can't find a reason to justify that part of their ability. & b4 I got grilled, I formed both of them multiple times with different builds, so dun go crap on me for not trying 1st.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 05:58:47 PM by Naitchng »

Offline CRASHER

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2019, 06:18:09 PM »
As the guy who ran the Road Warriors....a LOT at Gen Con....I agree on the LoD, they should be in consideration

the Revival definitely needs some....reviving... ...

Heat is due some love too I believe


Santino is actually a LOT of fun as I remember him since he got the new ability
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Offline DebuRaito

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2019, 07:43:57 PM »
I have the most problems with Vickie Guerrero being that she has such a passive ability that you're not even sure if you want to build around it. We can definitely argue that she could pick an enforcer and build around it instead, but there doesn't seem to be much point as compared to building the enforced superstars themselves.

So far, her default game plan revolves around enforcing Freaking Hero and playing a straight up chain deck while drawing off reversals made chain by Excuse Me. And although it isn't bad, it's just meh

Offline Naitchng

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2019, 08:46:18 PM »
Actually malenko was decent until the recent erranta on 1000 holds & psychology arm & leg. Probably the worst victim from that shenanigans update. His ability shld allow him to bypass tat restriction. Dab route is still viable, but meh at best. Actually pre errata malenko was always meh at best anyway. Honestly didn't really nd to handicap him for what is suppose to be his bread & butter. Dun understand y emma is on the list cos she really is decent.
I think most of the wwf ss nd some support to counter nxt ss, since most nxt ss have real tmf & way better supports then the old timers. Most of the old timers are made to be formed in 1 to 2 ways only, extremely rigid & their supports are mostly meh when compared to those of the nxt ss.

Offline necrobaron75

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2019, 09:13:52 PM »
3 guys I feel got nerfed so bad,nobody plays them anymore

Mr.Perfect
Stevie Richards
MVP
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Offline BigPimpin

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2019, 10:05:07 PM »
One thing I should add, and it's a mistake I can speak from experience on:

Not commonly played does not equal not good.  Sometimes real-life popularity affects play rates, sometimes people would just rather play other superstars.  No one in my playgroup plays CM Punk, for example, but you'll never convince me he's not good.  He's just, for whatever reason, not commonly played by me.

Love everything else so far, keep it coming.  I'm keeping track of the list for now in the lead thread.
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Offline Drywall

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2019, 09:53:40 AM »
MAN, I have to echo The Revival needing some love. I've never built Stevie because the BWO just feels like a better deck. MVP I can see being flimsy at the moment. Perfect always seemed to have such a large drawback for his ability but I've never built him either, to be fair.
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Offline necrobaron75

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2019, 11:19:05 AM »
MAN, I have to echo The Revival needing some love. I've never built Stevie because the BWO just feels like a better deck. MVP I can see being flimsy at the moment. Perfect always seemed to have such a large drawback for his ability but I've never built him either, to be fair.

Wasnt so much his ability,as it was the Towel added to it.

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Offline CreedP

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2020, 11:20:50 AM »
Good to see input, there's some surprising names on here though. Sometimes I think the Superstar just isn't being utilized properly, or perhaps it's a meta thing. Granted, it can also be a game evolution where they were great in say 2010, but not in 2020. Funny how things change...

I get the Brock comparison, though sometimes I wonder if that Backstage is STILL too good, heh. But there'll always be Superstars who do one job really well, and others that do some of that job while also doing other stuff. If you want to direct route, sure, but with as many Superstars as we have now, there's room for others who do A decently but also have B and C.  Granted, if even after the revamp, Dean Malenko still doesn't have that B and C factors, then perhaps we didn't scale him up enough.  (Sadly, he's a hard one to support, since WCW pics are hard to come by, and his run in WWE was brief)

Someone I had an interest in fixing before the transition was Sheamus - he's not necessarily bad, just low-powered (with the debuff on Mean Gene) and overly complex. My proposal was to restructure how he works while giving him a boost, though this would mean revising about half of his cards. (This would also make it easier to set up The Bar as a Faction support, similar to Bludgeon Brothers) 

What do you guys think about revising Sheamus as suggested?

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Offline necrobaron75

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Re: 2020 Bottom of the Barrel Thread
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2020, 09:37:11 PM »
Would be cool to see a TB Celtic Warrior with a new ability,especially since he's coming back
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