Author Topic: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"  (Read 496 times)

Offline dallasstar17

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Forgive the time delay in the Facebook post and this one, part of it is that I work nights and I had woken up from a dream about Raw Deal and needed to ask the question.

"Is it time to curtail the number of Backstage Cards?"

Now seeing some of the responses on Facebook, I have my personal responses to the topics brought up.

Quote
No. Once you know what the Shenanigan cards can do then you can put them all in a pile and label it a rule book extension. As for the other non-specifics, they all serve a purpose and take no time to resolve/figure out

Okay my first response to this is: Okay if the Shenanigan cards are a "rule book extension" then why should I have to pack them into say each and every deck. Why not have the almighty judging team and rules guru state: All of the Shenanigan cards are now part of the rule book and therefore are not needed to be packed into any deck. Unless there is something like that in the OmniFAQ having these cards in a deck just to smooth out the rule book is tedious at best. If they are supposed to be there to smooth out the rule book, make them part of the rules not something that you have to throw around in every deck. This will keep the amount of intimidation and overwhelming of card shock down as we are already flooding new players and those trying to adapt to VRD with a ton of information.

However I do like this post:
Quote
With Backstage Shenanigans being a card most of my backstage is just specifics and a 10th Year, the Shenanigans stay in my battle bag in case they need to be referenced.

I really like what the post here has to say... use these cards as a reference. And honestly I think that some of the other basic rules for like Chain, Volley, Heat, etc could use a card like treatment for a quick reference guide. That could be swell.

There is idea of a banned list, what I am advocating here is not a ban of the extension but an elevation of these cards to full rule book status to state these cards are always in play. Like in my first paragraph, if they are a rule book extension then Have the full team explain these cards are part of the rules now and treat them as such.  Then just have the cards as stated on the side like the rule book for reference when something goes sideways.

Okay now that I have the sh--show obviously out of the way...(points to your house if you know that reference)

Curtailing the number of cards in the Backstage Area.

I am going to advocate for 5 plus the number of superstar cards created for the backstage area. This is going to allow for more strategy in deck building. Now I look through the comments and see this quote:

Quote
That's kinda insane isn't? Why would we make cards that fix stuff and you almost have to guess at which ones you will use..... Doesn't matter a plan to consolidate all that crap into a list is ongoing so it's a pointless debate

Okay once again my response to this is that if we have cards that are fixing rule book issues, it is time to elevate those cards to the rule book status and get them out of the card pool. If a plan is already in play to do this type of thing is ongoing. GREAT!!!!! Let us be a bit more transparent about the situation and explain this to the player base. This will dissuade the conversations like I am having now and trying to trim down the number of cards that a deck needs to have printed and sleeved for a tournament to under 120.... I say once the cards that fix problems in the rule book have been "listed" and smoothed out the book, then we can go okay: Players you can have your superstar specific backstage cards +5 since we have removed all of the rule book fixing cards. Now you can add strategy to the backstage area again rather than chunking the fixing of the rules to this card type.

That is what I am looking for in the Backstage Area, the ability to create strategy not smooth out the rule book. If the rule book needs to be universally smoothed out, then make it part of the rules. My hope for V10 and beyond is that the backstage cards that do come out are for strategy purposes not to smooth out a rule that needed to be clarified.
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Offline Hogtrail

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Re: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2019, 11:54:43 AM »
Every backstage card that doesn't have 'Shenanigans' in the title IS strategy based and not rules based.
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Offline CreedP

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Re: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2019, 12:22:54 PM »
Also, most of this post hinges on the inaccuracy that there are 'rules based' changes on the Shenanigans cards, which is not correct.  They shift the game away from NPEs, and while they may seem a bit much to players not familiar with them, regular play results in their general disregard.

Note that play in the NXT format incorporates all of these changes, but requires using the special 'Errata' versions of the cards instead (thankfully, free to download for anyone).  There is a single reference card instead, showing what cards are banned for that format, and which cards have errata versions, along with the rules changes for the format.

Perhaps that would suit you better, but it's unlikely after 12 years the development team would 'reinvent the wheel' when this has been working so far, and saves trying to reference information on a website or in print.  It's all right there in case it needs to be reviewed, but 99% of the time just sits in a stack under the Superstar card minding its own business.  :)

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Offline Mitch!

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Re: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2019, 02:53:02 PM »
I also suggested a while back a "Sheet of Shenanigans" of some sort just to put everything on a page and then no need for all the backstage.
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Offline Hogtrail

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Re: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 03:24:33 PM »
I also suggested a while back a "Sheet of Shenanigans" of some sort just to put everything on a page and then no need for all the backstage.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N41baVPJKgbIg4gg1tDId_2bRTRl8erR

There you go
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Offline CreedP

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Re: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 03:26:50 PM »
I also suggested a while back a "Sheet of Shenanigans" of some sort just to put everything on a page and then no need for all the backstage.
I made a text document of that a while back, not sure where it is or was though, heh.

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Offline Rio D

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Re: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2019, 07:30:12 AM »
As a long time player and being kinda quiet on here, I'd like to add that I liked the BS cards when they were first introduce and had some sort of negative to play aspect. It made it more of a meta choice, if your opponents were playing lots of Divas pack the women's belt nuke. I really think you should have to choose what ones to pack, but that's just me. Like give a limit of 5 non SS BS cards, the game would be much more interesting.  IAATG kills your deck pack that one, maybe you don't care about Inferno Match (TB) leave that one at home.

Offline The_Wolfpac

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Re: As per the Raw Deal FB Group "The More Detailed Discussion"
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2019, 06:28:23 PM »
I really like the shenanigans cards, totally reinvigorated the game by nerfing most of the OP cards from classic. Great job.

I don't mind if someone wants to play 10 backstage cards, I must be missing something because I do not see a problem. I guess you could have a printed rulebook in place of the shenanigans cards, but the point is that they are optional. You do not need to pack them.

I can see why a limit on the number of backstage cards could be good, in terms of strategically packing certain shenanigans cards. But then you run into issues where certain superstars have 3+ backstage cards are they then penalized because they will have to choose between game changing cards for them and a shenanigans card....

I like the idea of a limit, but it works as it is. It's not broken, don't mess with it. If you're gonna play around with the format can we keep it to localized house rules or custom rules for lackey tournaments, etc...
I don't want the game to be changed too much, I think the shenanigans cards were a great idea, they didnt change rules they encouraged players to step away from the ridiculously OP superstars and cards. I would like to see more if I am honest.

I am wholeheartedly against a ban list of any sorts. I think a ban list is a massive step in the wrong direction. How do you gauge which cards should be banned? Will we just ban every card with an effect that allows a pinfall condition or prevents a pinfall... A banlist is a bad idea. The game is good as it is.

A little off topic but:
One thing I would really like to see is a bit more support for BASH, Blindside, Precision and more importantly the crappy old actions/moves you never see getting used anymore. I know some superstars address the issue, but I would love to see a few cards similar to dynamically inclined/interviewed by mean gene/preparing for one hell of a match; that buff all the weird and wonderful old moves/actions.