Author Topic: "From a card"  (Read 457 times)

Offline Hogtrail

  • Posts: 331
  • +15/-3
    • View Profile
"From a card"
« on: October 24, 2018, 06:51:59 PM »
If card A makes card B chain, does card B have a reversal restriction "from a card?"
Please Like The Film Slobs on Facebook and Twitter!

Online Kingsantino92

  • Posts: 210
  • +4/-2
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 04:03:06 AM »
Yes sir. Chain is a reversal restriction and card A made card B a chain.

Offline niiiiick

  • Posts: 937
  • +16/-8
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 05:09:45 AM »

Offline Daeva

  • Virtual Contributor, Level 4 Judge, Hope Ender
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10469
  • +316/-214
  • On Balance, Off Balance, Doesn't Matter
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 03:26:02 PM »
I can see how this would be confusing, so think of it like this:

Card A granted card B a trait. The trait granted gives card B a reversal restriction, but the restriction still comes from the trait, not the card that granted the trait in the first place.

Does that make more sense?
Nate Weiss, Rules Manager & Dream Killer
"You're no fun." -Creed
Timing question? Look here.
Evidence is everything in a court of law. Evidence is also everything in the Rules Forum.

Offline Hogtrail

  • Posts: 331
  • +15/-3
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 07:03:08 PM »
I can see how this would be confusing, so think of it like this:

Card A granted card B a trait. The trait granted gives card B a reversal restriction, but the restriction still comes from the trait, not the card that granted the trait in the first place.

Does that make more sense?

Makes sense, just wanted to be sure.

Thanks!
Please Like The Film Slobs on Facebook and Twitter!

Online Kingsantino92

  • Posts: 210
  • +4/-2
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2018, 04:27:06 AM »
Sorry about that Hogtrail. I hope you weren't in a game when I answered your question.

Offline Scotty

  • Posts: 2844
  • +51/-44
  • Backlash Podcast Co-host
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2018, 04:42:53 AM »
I can see how this would be confusing, so think of it like this:

Card A granted card B a trait. The trait granted gives card B a reversal restriction, but the restriction still comes from the trait, not the card that granted the trait in the first place.

Does that make more sense?

Wording makes sense, but I’m not really following the logic. If card A isn’t played at all, there’s no restriction, so certainly the card A has to cause the restriction, regardless of what the restriction is?

Offline Eric RD

  • Posts: 2613
  • +16/-1
  • Backlash Podcast Co-host
    • View Profile
    • Backlash Podcast
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2018, 05:30:43 AM »
I can see how this would be confusing, so think of it like this:

Card A granted card B a trait. The trait granted gives card B a reversal restriction, but the restriction still comes from the trait, not the card that granted the trait in the first place.

Does that make more sense?

Wording makes sense, but I’m not really following the logic. If card A isn’t played at all, there’s no restriction, so certainly the card A has to cause the restriction, regardless of what the restriction is?

Restriction comes from a trait. The trait comes from a card.
Backlash Podcast 28 - McMahonism https://youtu.be/CuYs3VNMm-Q

Backlash Podcast - a Raw Deal podcast - available every other Tuesday on Apple Podcast, Stitcher and YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/c/EricRDeal
https://www.facebook.com/Backlashpod/

Offline Daeva

  • Virtual Contributor, Level 4 Judge, Hope Ender
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10469
  • +316/-214
  • On Balance, Off Balance, Doesn't Matter
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2018, 12:12:03 PM »
Wording makes sense, but I’m not really following the logic. If card A isn’t played at all, there’s no restriction, so certainly the card A has to cause the restriction, regardless of what the restriction is?

Let's construct a similar example to show you why that's not the case.

Let's say that I had a card that made my next maneuver have "dynamic" in the title, and my Ability said that my maneuvers with "dynamic" in the title couldn't be reversed from Arsenal. That maneuver would have a reversal restriction, but it wouldn't be from the card, despite the fact that the restriction wouldn't exist if the card hadn't granted my maneuver the word "dynamic" in the title.

Granting Chain is the same way. You're granting a trait that then causes the rules of the game to apply a reversal restriction. The card just grants the trait, not the restriction; the restriction comes from an outside source.
Nate Weiss, Rules Manager & Dream Killer
"You're no fun." -Creed
Timing question? Look here.
Evidence is everything in a court of law. Evidence is also everything in the Rules Forum.

Offline darkdestiny91

  • Posts: 181
  • +1/-1
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2018, 12:45:11 AM »
So, if let's say I playing The Showstopper, and The Legend Lives On grants my maneuvers played from hand the Chain trait,

My opponent can't use Don't be a Douchebag to reverse said maneuvers?

The Legend Lives On
Reversal: Special
Reverse any Chain, Heat, Throwback, Volley, or Restricted Modification Symbol card and end your opponent's turn. Discard your hand.
When this card is in your Ring area, during your turn your Maneuver cards in your Ringside pile and played from your Ringside pile are Heat cards, and your Maneuver cards played from your hand are Chain cards.
F: 0     D: 2     Unique     Errata
ARM

Don't be a Douchebag!
Action / Reversal: Special
As an action, cannot be reversed when you have lower Fortitude; shuffle up to 2 cards from your Ringside into your Arsenal.
As a reversal, ignore any reversal restriction from a card, reverse any non-Unique maneuver that is Revolution or has a reversal restriction from your opponent; when overturned, can also reverse any non-damage card effect (even during the Pre-Match phase), and put this card in to your Ring.
Choose one: draw 1 card or he discards 1 card.
F: 0     D: 2     Unique     Permanent
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 12:49:50 AM by darkdestiny91 »

Offline Hogtrail

  • Posts: 331
  • +15/-3
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2018, 07:06:22 AM »
Douchebag DOES reverse chain maneuvers, HOWEVER, you cannot "ignore" the reversal restriction created by the chain trait, so you still have to discard 2 to play the reversal.
Please Like The Film Slobs on Facebook and Twitter!

Online Kingsantino92

  • Posts: 210
  • +4/-2
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 10:26:18 AM »
So if I was playing The Rattlesnake and I am a heat deck would I still be able to play non unique heat cards because of the heat trait or is it blocked by the Snakes ability?

Offline niiiiick

  • Posts: 937
  • +16/-8
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2018, 10:28:43 AM »
So if I was playing The Rattlesnake and I am a heat deck would I still be able to play non unique heat cards because of the heat trait or is it blocked by the Snakes ability?

Straight from the omniFAQ:

-Heat is a Trait, not a card effect. Hell in a Cell Match and The Rattlesnake's ability will not prevent Heat cards from being played from your Ringside pile, nor will they prevent Heat cards from being removed from the game if cards are moved from the ringside. EXAMPLE: Foil cards played by Triple H, Undertaker and others listed while a Cell is in play, or Unique cards played against The Rattlesnake will still trigger Heat removal if they move cards.

Online Kingsantino92

  • Posts: 210
  • +4/-2
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2018, 10:29:14 AM »
I ask because regardless of it being non unique or unique, the heat trait is still the heat trait not the card effect or the card itself. The same way Don't be a douchebag would be able to ignore discarding two cards to reverse a chain.

Offline niiiiick

  • Posts: 937
  • +16/-8
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2018, 10:52:22 AM »
I ask because regardless of it being non unique or unique, the heat trait is still the heat trait not the card effect or the card itself. The same way Don't be a douchebag would be able to ignore discarding two cards to reverse a chain.

But Dbag CANT ignore the discard 2 for chain because that is coming from the trait, not the card. Just as the omniFAQ states for Heat, it's a trait, not card effect so it gets around Rattlesnake

Offline darkdestiny91

  • Posts: 181
  • +1/-1
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2018, 09:31:33 PM »

But Dbag CANT ignore the discard 2 for chain because that is coming from the trait, not the card. Just as the omniFAQ states for Heat, it's a trait, not card effect so it gets around Rattlesnake

And that is why I’m asking. In previous rulings, it was previously ruled that you can use Don’t Be A Douchebag! to reverse Chain cards because of the trait’s effect on the maneuver affected. Now, it seems to be ruled differently again? Can we get a consensus on what Douchebag can or cannot do, and how traits will interact with the reversal restriction ruling?

Offline dilbert505

  • Posts: 2336
  • +49/-42
  • The Prince of Insufficient Light
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2018, 10:43:26 PM »

But Dbag CANT ignore the discard 2 for chain because that is coming from the trait, not the card. Just as the omniFAQ states for Heat, it's a trait, not card effect so it gets around Rattlesnake

And that is why I’m asking. In previous rulings, it was previously ruled that you can use Don’t Be A Douchebag! to reverse Chain cards because of the trait’s effect on the maneuver affected. Now, it seems to be ruled differently again? Can we get a consensus on what Douchebag can or cannot do, and how traits will interact with the reversal restriction ruling?

You're confusing two different parts of the card.

Don't be a Douchebag!
Action / Reversal: Special
As an action, cannot be reversed when you have lower Fortitude; shuffle up to 2 cards from your Ringside into your Arsenal.
As a reversal, ignore any reversal restriction from a card, reverse any non-Unique maneuver that is Revolution or has a reversal restriction from your opponent; when overturned, can also reverse any non-damage card effect (even during the Pre-Match phase), and put this card in to your Ring.
Choose one: draw 1 card or he discards 1 card.
F: 0     D: 2     Unique     Permanent

Douchebag may only ignore reversal restrictions from a card, not from a trait (that would be the part in bold above.) As a result, you still have to discard 2 cards to satisfy the Chain trait before throwing Douchebag as a reversal to a Chain card. However, the Chain trait is still a reversal restriction from an opponent, so Douchebag is still a valid reversal, as the underlined part indicates.
Universally Recognized as a Mature and Responsible Adult.

Playing on Lackey? I'm on US Eastern Time; you can check what time it is for me here.

Offline darkdestiny91

  • Posts: 181
  • +1/-1
    • View Profile
Re: "From a card"
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 04:28:19 AM »

You're confusing two different parts of the card.

Don't be a Douchebag!
Action / Reversal: Special
As an action, cannot be reversed when you have lower Fortitude; shuffle up to 2 cards from your Ringside into your Arsenal.
As a reversal, ignore any reversal restriction from a card, reverse any non-Unique maneuver that is Revolution or has a reversal restriction from your opponent; when overturned, can also reverse any non-damage card effect (even during the Pre-Match phase), and put this card in to your Ring.
Choose one: draw 1 card or he discards 1 card.
F: 0     D: 2     Unique     Permanent

Douchebag may only ignore reversal restrictions from a card, not from a trait (that would be the part in bold above.) As a result, you still have to discard 2 cards to satisfy the Chain trait before throwing Douchebag as a reversal to a Chain card. However, the Chain trait is still a reversal restriction from an opponent, so Douchebag is still a valid reversal, as the underlined part indicates.

Okay, got it. Just trying to clarify. Looks like Daeva's example got me all confused.