Author Topic: A couple shinsuke questions.  (Read 410 times)

Offline riothebeast

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A couple shinsuke questions.
« on: August 06, 2018, 01:39:44 PM »
When applying the damage a second time can it be reversed as normal and also able to draw stun?

When applying the second damage does it check the printed damage of the card or the physical damage that was dealt?


Offline Daeva

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 01:51:26 PM »
The second application of Damage can be reversed as normal and draws Stun as normal.

The second application of Damage applies whatever damage was derived by the time that Step 8 rolls around. In practice, that means that every Damage modifier that was applied to the card applies to both instances, EXCEPT Sustained Damage, which has to be used separately for each instance of Damage because of its very specific wording. So Not in Front of the Kids will knock 4D off of both applications, using Nakamura's Ability on a card affected by Brahma Bull deals 1D twice, etc.
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Offline Dizzy

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2018, 01:57:18 PM »
The second application of Damage can be reversed as normal and draws Stun as normal.

The second application of Damage applies whatever damage was derived by the time that Step 8 rolls around. In practice, that means that every Damage modifier that was applied to the card applies to both instances, EXCEPT Sustained Damage, which has to be used separately for each instance of Damage because of its very specific wording. So Not in Front of the Kids will knock 4D off of both applications, using Nakamura's Ability on a card affected by Brahma Bull deals 1D twice, etc.

Newbie question here, please be gentle:

1.) isn't applying damage different than applying card text?
2.) isn't stun a trait? if not, what is it classified as?
3.) shinsuke has to discard 1 card an announce intentions to apply damage twice; if the maneuver is reversed once the effect is lost, correct?
4.) will reversing the second damage application trigger card text as if it were a reversed maneuver?
5.) the second damage application...this doesn't carry the previous card text including restrictions, does it?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 02:01:04 PM by Dizzy »
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Offline niiiiick

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 02:43:34 PM »
Also, how does Shinsuke interact with reversals like Oversell that determine the move to be successful? Do you overturn double? Or can the second instance of damage be reversed on overturn after overturning the first instance for Oversells effect?

Offline DebuRaito

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 05:10:11 PM »
More qns:

Does reversing it the first time but fail to reverse it on the second damage application considered reverse from Arsenal to qualify as a counter for the opponent? Likewise for reversing on second time but not the first time.

Offline Daeva

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 06:19:01 PM »
Newbie question here, please be gentle:

1.) isn't applying damage different than applying card text?
2.) isn't stun a trait? if not, what is it classified as?
3.) shinsuke has to discard 1 card an announce intentions to apply damage twice; if the maneuver is reversed once the effect is lost, correct?
4.) will reversing the second damage application trigger card text as if it were a reversed maneuver?
5.) the second damage application...this doesn't carry the previous card text including restrictions, does it?

Applying damage is different than applying card text, as per the Timing Breakdown posted in my signature.

Stun is a trait. (Specifically, a sub-class trait that only applies to maneuvers.)

Shinsuke cycles a card to declare his intention to apply damage twice when the card is a legal play, in step 2e. If the card is unsuccessful, it never gets to Step 9 to deal damage, so it can't apply damage twice, or at all.

Reversing either instance of Damage (or both, if you're fancy) counts as reversing the card from Arsenal for Counter, etc.

The second Damage application is identical to the first when it comes to reversal restrictions, etc. It's still Damage from the qualifying maneuver, it's an exact duplicate of the first.

Re: Over Sell Maneuver: Over Sell replaces one instance of Damage. Apply the second normally (including being able to reverse it from Arsenal) and then the turn will end.
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Offline DebuRaito

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 10:59:53 PM »
More qns:

Does reversing it the first time but fail to reverse it on the second damage application considered reverse from Arsenal to qualify as a counter for the opponent? Likewise for reversing on second time but not the first time.

In addition to this qns which haven't been answered. Am I correct to say Nakamura is repeating the entire step 9 of the timing breakdown?

9a Chance for activated damage modification (Sustained Damage, Los Guerreros)
9b Damage is overturned one card at a time. Appropriate reversals may be overturned.  (This is also the Step where cards are overturned for Raw & Ready, Over Sell Maneuver, and other cards that replace damage with overturning cards.)
9c Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the player of the original card (searching for a Chain card, for example)
9d Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the opponent (Jamie Noble’s superstar ability, activating There’s No Holding Me Back)
9e Any ‘end the turn’ effects are resolved, along with any effects triggered by ending the turn.

If it is, does it grant another chance for opponent like Jamie Noble to pick up another card from Ringside again after the resolution of the damage on the second application? Likewise, can opponent play oversell again?

Appreciate any advices.

Offline darkdestiny91

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 11:30:26 PM »


If it is, does it grant another chance for opponent like Jamie Noble to pick up another card from Ringside again after the resolution of the damage on the second application? Likewise, can opponent play oversell again?

Appreciate any advices.

Oversell and Sustained are played during step 7b of timing breakdown. Only the ACE of Sustained can be activated. I assume you are right that the entire step 9 is being repeated when Nakamura's ability is activated, thus the timing to play another Oversell Maneuver is long gone.

However, I'd like to add on instead. Do cards like Undermine the Competition and Oversell, those that look at damage after the maneuver is successfully played, require the player that played the UtC or OM to take both packets of damage to use the effect of the reversal? I see an earlier response by Daeva that only the first instance of damage is replaced by Oversell, but do I draw after the first instance or the second? Likewise, for UtC, does the maneuver removal effect start after the first instance or second?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 11:36:29 PM by darkdestiny91 »

Offline niiiiick

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2018, 09:32:13 AM »
It is only one move being played, and therefore only 1 response to play reversals would be allowed. 1 oversell, 1 playing of sustained, etc.

Offline riothebeast

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2018, 09:43:39 AM »
Cards like precision kick say pumped to 10 damage+  after a wrestlemania basically say i win the game? Also a dlb has the potential to draw 8 cards?

Offline Dizzy

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2018, 09:58:43 AM »
Just to be clear: Shin can draw for stun twice?
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Offline riothebeast

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2018, 10:41:53 AM »
Just to be clear: Shin can draw for stun twice?

He answered immidiatly after my inital question that yes you can.

Offline Daeva

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Re: A couple shinsuke questions.
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2018, 10:04:18 AM »
I'm going to lock this thread temporarily while we discuss some things in the PT forum. Hold tight, folks.
Nate Weiss, Rules Manager & Dream Killer
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Evidence is everything in a court of law. Evidence is also everything in the Rules Forum.