Author Topic: Hello all some rules questions part 1  (Read 1075 times)

Offline Nicodemvs

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Hello all some rules questions part 1
« on: July 19, 2018, 05:41:01 PM »
hi so my play group has some rules questions we've written down over the past few months, some of these are classifications to rules that seem basic but some people in the wanted a ruling on them to be 100% sure so thank you. im going to split this so its not like 30 questions in 1 thing. please keep in mind we only classic only. i numbered them to make it easier for answering and not getting lost let me knwo if there was anything i should have done to make it easier. Thanks Nico.

1... If you a no-show and one of the cards is not a heel card as it's being removed from the game can you use the Ace of I'm gonna to break you to prevent a card from being removed and if so where does that card go your hand ringside pile back into the deck?

2... Do cards like divine intervention and Furry of the storm reverse cards like clutch not basic reversal "reverse any" but Superstar specific or very rare reversals that's a reverse any card or do they not?

3... Does blanking a card remove it's type like face, heel, or chain and/or respective logo raw or SmackDown or is just the text box blanked?

4... Does who in the blue hell Do You Think You Are? when used by the people's champion you only get the second effects of plus two hand size? someone said you get the plus two hand size and your opponents mid-match reduced?

5... For clarification people like Lita, Batista, and Goldberg Superstar abilities that reduce the cost of a card or cards to cost zero along with card effects that reduce the cost those cards will be are effected by Brahma Bull correct?

6... Do cards like Premier Smackdown Superstar allow you to draw cards even during the pre-match phase by playing Smackdown logo cards even before hands have been drawn?

7... For clarification Premier WWF/WWE superstar makes the player with the lower superstar value remove cards from their ring area into the ringside pile equal to the greatest superstar value correct? like all of their pre-match cards if high enough
superstar value, even if their permanent? and can your opponent use Ref got in the way during prematch aginst this?

8... When playing cards do they count themselves as part of a count towards an effect effect (interacting with number of a type of card(s) on the field correct)? Example The Maneuver of Doom would it count itself
for its effect along with similar card effects counting the number of cards in the ring area? universally unique counts as unique for this right?

9... Can cards like the Panic cards mainly Panic grab played with clutch onto opponent be reversed with backlash even if clutch isn't reversed? or are they played at the same time as 1 card in a manor of speaking?

10... Can u volley this hold on its not time for the show? As its effect happens before the first draw step of the game.

11... Can play cards before draw segment begining of the game or otherwise? I think unless a card or ability specifies you can, you cannot and cards must be played during the main phase right? rule book phases section backs me up on this right? example opponent tried to Escape the rules and blow up my it's showtime after he activated hold on it's not time for the show. Also to this question if your opponent uses hold on it's not time for the show can you choose not to activate
is it's showtime is it an ace or not?

12... When playing as Mr. PPV can your opponent use Volley to reverse a card like The Maneuver of Doom, Missile Dropkick, or other high risks with the ability, can they Volley ability to reverse it or does PPV make them only be able to be reversed from the Arsenal by his effect?

13... Does shoot counter reverse cards like Reap the Rewards and integrity that don't directly let you draw card at the moment but do allow them to draw at a later point?

14... When you put Judo chop into play by its effect does your opponent take damage or is it just placing it into your ring area? Also can you put multiple Judo chops into play off of your opponent playing two actions in a turn or only 1 off of the trigger?

15... Can you sidewalk slam TB from the hand to reverse a bootlace or other cards that say cannot be reversed from X-Location or does sidewalk slam TB only reverse fully unreversible cards? Not just cards that can be only reversed from restricted locations and just mentioned cannot be reversed in the text?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 05:56:19 PM by Nicodemvs »

Offline niiiiick

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2018, 06:38:20 PM »
1. Ringside
2. No they dont
3. No, only blanks what's in the text box u less it says otherwise, like blank damage
4. Only +2 HS
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Premiere takes from the top of arsenal, not ring
8. Yes, by the time their effect activates that card is in the ring, for something like MOD it counts itself
9. Unless you played a separate card prior to panic+move, they are at the same time so there hasnt been a successful move played before hand.
10. Not sure will defer to someone else
11. Same as above
12. Trait cannot be used for any move that has a can only be reversed restriction
13. I believe the potentiality rule says yes, but will defer
14. No damage, and not sure
15. No sidewalk slam TB only reverses cards that cannot be reversed, NOT cannot be reversed from hand, arsenal, etc.

Offline Nicodemvs

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2018, 07:07:04 PM »
TY niiiiick you always help us by answering what are probably dumb questions to you guys we appreciate it

Offline Nicodemvs

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2018, 07:11:18 PM »
niiiiick did you mean Not sure will defer to someone else for 11 when you said same as above or same for the answer to 9?

Offline niiiiick

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2018, 10:00:50 PM »
I'd have 10 and 11 be answered by someone like Daeva..of course he will probably come in and confirm most anyways

Offline Nicodemvs

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2018, 10:23:49 PM »
no hurry ^_^ thank younow i just gotta wait for the other one to get answered too XD and ill let the group know

Offline Daeva

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 12:10:00 PM »
You can play Reversals anytime during the opponent's turn, including before their Draw Segment. Hold On! It's Not Time to Show Yet can be reversed normally.

It's Showtime! is an optional effect. You are not compelled to use it. If your opponent already played Hold On! It's Not Time to Show Yet, not activating It's Showtime! will not negate any part of that card's effect.

You cannot play cards before your own Draw Segment unless something specifically gives you permission to do so. Escape the Rules gives no such permission, so you cannot play it before your Draw Segment.

It's Showtime! is not an ACE, it's a triggered effect.

Volley is considered reversing from Ringside.

Potentiality cares about what cards will do when they are played or successfully played. A card like Reap the Rewards that only lets you draw on later triggers isn't eligible for Shoot Counter.

You can drop as many Judo Chops into the Ring as you have in hand, as they all trigger independently. Same with Judo Takedowns if your opponent removes something.
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Offline W4RP47H

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2018, 06:36:15 PM »
Niiiiiiiiiiick care to explain your reasoning on 15. I am curious, thanks.

Offline CreedP

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2018, 06:38:11 PM »
It's not reasoning, it's the rules.  Sidewalk Slam TB (and any other similar cards) can only reverse a card that 'cannot be reversed', flat out.  Similar conditions, partial versions, not applicable.  Only something like Diversion -> Chair Shot can be reversed.

It doesn't great any permissions to hit cards like Claw that 'Cannot be reversed from hand'.

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Offline W4RP47H

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2018, 10:16:21 AM »
First of all I want to say thank you to everyone who responds to the questions presented in this forum.

I am presenting a couple of arguments that may or may not matter to the reader.
I assure you that these basisi of logic are both relevant and important to myself and some who are of a like minded persuasion.

1 Reason matters and is an intrisic aspect of rule. If there is no reason to a rule it need not exist. If a rule exists
    with out logic, logical people will not follow it.
2 Saying reason doesn't matter or apply is generally disingenuous in a vacuum. Rules exist for a reason and it is
   reasonable to understand the reason a rule exists.
3 Rules must be codified, published and easily accessed or else there is no reasonable expectation to follow
   said rules.
4 Enforcement. Rules must be enforced. Rules in absentia of enforcement are rarely followed an thusly not
    actual rules.
5. Rules without thought or understanding behind them often lead to a number of other more complicated rules
    that then seek to fix the problem in the existing framework.
6. Arbiters of rules must be legitimate or people will not respect or follows the opinions of the "court".
7. If you say their is no logic to rules, aren't you then saying feel free to not follow this unreasonable "rule"?

Therefore it is indeed reasonable to want to know the thought process behind a statement of rule.
This is why Supreme Court Rulings have a opinion which explain and outlines the thought process of the Judges on the panel. No court in which the English language is used whether Crown or common law or Maritime law or UCMJ issues rules without both opinion and citations of previous laws and rules.

On counterpoint:
Now it is possible to disagree with a finding and still be subject to the findings of the ruling bodies. You can chose to not accept speed laws but you will have issues with renewing your license for example. This typically works because Judges are often lifetime appointees and have the full force of a armed and tax funded infrastructure that punishes those who stray from the findings of the judge.

Niiiiiiiiiiick might have said: This is the classical interpretation. See here on this page this rule here. Typically I would have been that's wierd but cool if that is the tradition and understood by the community I am not going to rock the boat or reinvent the wheel. Rules as written there at least is a paradox. Rules as intended is harder to tell as Baron ( the undisputed sovereign authority Raw Deal authority) has been dead for some years. ) Now I am sure this issue was probably resolved somewhere on a Comic Images rules website as I remember from when I used to compete back in the day we would reference. I have asked for the community as a whole to help fix the dead links if possible.

As far as just accepting some TCO persons opinion I hear alot of ... interesting comments that happen from time to time. Just recently a returning player was told backlash is 6/12. While this may be correct for Virtual players it is incorrect for classic or "pure" original Raw Deal players. This happens alot as little distinction tends to be made where decision posted in the Classic section often contain Virtual cards as an example. I think Virtual players enjoy their version of the game so much the forget that their are entire countries that play traditional Raw Deal (Some with their own Fantasy cards).

I have know the op for some years and I am pretty sure he is asking from a classic perspective. Is there anyway someone could link us to the original rules and FAQ?

Thanks in advance this forum continues to be a valuable resource.

TLDR: ROI matters as much as RAW and neither matter if the rules are broken, not understood or meaningless. Classic players need a non broken rules page.

Offline Hogtrail

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2018, 10:48:29 AM »
Raw Deal Omni Faqs are pinned on the rules forum. I believe that's all "classic rules "
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Offline Daeva

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2018, 11:07:09 AM »
Also, as for the reasoning on Sidewalk Slam TB: It says that it reverses anything that cannot be reversed. It does not say, "Reverse any card with the words 'cannot be reversed' in the text." "Cannot be reversed" is a specific condition, and Sidewalk Slam TB's text says that it specifically looks for that condition. If that condition is not there, it's not valid. The FAQ backs this up:

Sidewalk Slam (Throwback)
-This card cannot be played as a reversal to a card which has only a reversal restriction.  EXAMPLE:  Atomic Bear Hug cannot be reversed from the opponent’s hand - Sidewalk Slam will not reverse ABH unless that card has another effect which independently makes it fully irreversible.
-Conditions which separately remove the ability to reverse, but do not wholly make the card irreversible, will not allow for reversal with Sidewalk Slam.  EXAMPLE:  Activating The Title’s on the Line! and playing Wheelbarrow Slam cannot be reversed with Sidewalk Slam.

Another helpful FAQ entry to help clear this logic up is for a previous card that reverses unreversibles, Not According to the Fine Print.

Not According to the Fine Print!
ERRATA: The card now reads “Can only be played if the card titled Signed Contract with Linda McMahon OR Backed by Mr. McMahon is in your Ring area.  Reverse any completely irreversible card and end your opponent’s turn.”
-The game considers “Cannot be reversed”, “May not be reversed” and “Can not be reversed” to all be the same term.  Not According to the Fine Print will affect cards that have these statements on them.
-Fine Print will reverse a card if the text states that it cannot be reversed, or an effect makes the card irreversible.
-Fine Print will not reverse a card that that cannot be reversed from a certain area only. EXAMPLE: Dirty Low Blow or Claw.
-If separate reversal restrictions overlap to create a card that cannot be reversed from any area, Fine Print cannot be used as a Reversal - the card must be completely irreversible from one source.  EXAMPLE:  Sledge Hammer Shot states it cannot be reversed from Arsenal, if used in conjuction with The Title Is On the Line, a player has no opportunity to reverse this Maneuver; however, Fine Print cannot be used.

Sidewalk Slam TB and Fine Print both look for the same condition to reverse, so their eligibility is the same. (The game considers "cannot be reversed" and "completely irreversible" to be the same thing, in the same umbrella as "may not be reversed" and "can not be reversed.")
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Offline W4RP47H

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2018, 11:18:40 AM »
Cogent reasoning, thanks Daeva.

Offline Ekhari

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2018, 12:03:05 PM »
I haven't said or done much in a while, but as far as the whole rules thing for Raw Deal, most people who have an idea will contribute, but there's two people you have to listen to.

Daeva is the Head Judge and pretty much all around rules guy.  Usually if someone else answers he'll pop in with a "stamped for correctitude" or make corrections or comments on what was said.

CreedP is the Head Designer (or only, I'm not 100% sure). If it's related to Virtual, he had at least a hand in designing it if he didn't do the entire thing himself.

As far as I understand from previous posts, conversations, etc, both worked on the game while it was in print and with Barron, so out of everyone still here have the best insight into what was intended with the game all around.  Admitted Creed can be a little brusque sometimes (no offense Creed), but what he stated wasn't his conjecture or belief, I saw the ruling in the OmniFAQ as it was taken from the Comic Images website and rehosted.  Many rulings on specific card, game mechanics, card traits and terminology can be found via the OmniFAQ (which applies to cards released in print by CI) and the Virtual FAQ (specific to virtual cards or interactions with Virtual Cards).  Stating that there is no ruling body or official rules is disingenuous and can be proven so by a little light research through the website.

As to errors that may come up, it happens, and I can't think of anyone that will say they are right 100% of the time, or that mistakes don't slip through on things.  Everyone's human and makes mistakes.

Sorry if I derailed things, I just found I couldn't keep my silence on this one.  Back to lurking.

Note: OmniFAQ and Virtual FAQ can be found through links here: http://teamcanadaonline.net///index.php/topic,7946.0.html.
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Offline Daeva

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2018, 04:56:01 PM »
In the interest of full disclosure: I was a playtester during the Revolution sets, and heavily involved in this very Rules Forum from Insurrextion onward. I got on Barron and Mike's radar by getting my shot at Worlds from being the #1 ranked player in the world from July 2005 to June 2006. During Raw Deal's print run, I was never involved with shaping or managing its rules in any official form. I kinda wish that things had worked out differently and I'd gotten a chance to lend a hand with the rules sooner (I remember interpreting card wordings during Rev3 playtesting), but things didn't work out that way.
Nate Weiss, Rules Manager & Dream Killer
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Offline W4RP47H

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2018, 01:56:35 AM »
I respect Nate's understanding of the rules. I have in the past and will continue to ask his opinion on things. Creed also clearly understands the rules. I do not think it is anyones intent to offend anyone. However if some on says logic doesn't matter. That sentence in it self is oxmoronical especially from someone who has large body of work involing logic used to make new rules and game types. That was my point.

My second point was I wanted a clear delineation between classic and Virtual as they are different things.

The reason my playgroup is posting here as opposed to other forums is the fact I have told them that a number of players from the old days are here and there is quality content. I have found that to be largely true here and most posters are awesome and very helpful to my slef but also the people that I continue to bring into the game.

My players are new to raw deal...but they are not new to games. Some have played at a high level: Warhammer 40k, MtG, L5R, Heroclix, Netrunner and many others. I myself may have played a game once before. So I do appreciate the assistance given.

This next sentence applies only to those few less than helpful people. If I send new players here and they are polite and courteous please respond likewise.

Offline W4RP47H

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2018, 02:03:30 AM »
@Nate can a person use Not According to the Fine Print or Sidewalk slam(TB) to reverse Running Lariat for example? How does Beating the Odds play in to this discussion? Thanks in advance.

Offline Nicodemvs

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2018, 05:12:44 PM »
SS3 Running Lariat says:
Cannot be reversed by the card titled Elbow to the Face.
Reversals to this card are +2D.
When reversed from your opponent’s hand, if the first card played on his next turn is a maneuver, it cannot be reversed.

Can't be reversed by 1 card so still very reversible, id think those cards wouldn't be able to reverse it.

SS2 Beating the Odds says:
Draw 1 card.
When this card is in your Ring area, you may put this card into your Ringside pile when your opponent plays a maneuver that “cannot be reversed” in some way to allow that maneuver to be reversed normally.
If an effect your opponent controls removes this card from your Ring area, he ends his turn.

Beating the Odds
ERRATA: The game considers “Cannot be reversed”, “May Not be reversed”, “Can not be reversed”, and ‘cannot reverse’ to all be the same term.  Beating the Odds will affect cards that have these statements on them.
-This lets the user ignore an effect that makes a maneuver card irreversible whole or in part, no matter if that effect comes from another card, a Superstar Ability or the text of the card in question.
-Beating will allow a Maneuver to be reversed if the text states that it cannot be reversed, or if other effects specifically modify the Maneuver to make it irreversible.  It will also allow a reversal of a Maneuver that cannot be reversed from a certain area only, such as Dirty Low Blow.
-This will affect a card that has been made irreversible by more than one effect.  EXAMPLE: Tree of Woe played after a Turn the Tide can be made reversible by a single Beating the Odds.
-Beating will not affect cards or effects that say “Can only be reversed by...” and similar wording.
-Beating will affect maneuver cards with an appropriate restriction on reversals.  EXAMPLE:  Redemption, Remove the People’s Elbow Pad.
-Beating has no effect on maneuver cards with the Chain trait as such, but it can affect other restrictions.  EXAMPLE:  Beating the Odds will allow an opponent to reverse Atomic Bear Hug from Backlash deck, but it will not affect the required 2-card discard for the Chain trait.
-If an opponent causes Beating to be removed with a card such as Gut Punch, he must end his turn at the earliest opportunity.  This means the damage of the maneuver card (and other effects) must be fully resolved before the end-the-turn effect.
-If this card is removed during the controller’s turn by an effect that is controlled by his opponent (such as In This Very Ring), the end-the-turn effect will be ignored.

beating the odds ability makes things that cannot be reversed and can only be reversed from certain areas be reversed reversible like a normal card, but clearly states it does not affect cards that can only be reversed by X card.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 12:37:25 AM by Nicodemvs »

Offline Nicodemvs

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2018, 05:19:04 PM »
TY all so much for the rulings really appreciated. and now that i know where the faq is i can look up the rules so we dont have to ask so many questions hopefully ^_^

Offline Daeva

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2018, 08:44:52 AM »
Running Lariat's no-Elbow protection doesn't make it vulnerable to Sidewalk Slam TB or Not According to the Fine Print. A card has to be made completely irreversible to be reversible by those two cards; any sort of piecemeal irreversibility doesn't cut it. Nico is correct on that count.

Beating the Odds is worded differently. It cares about any effect with "cannot be reversed" in the text, even conditional or piecemeal ones. Popping Beating the Odds to Elbow a Running Lariat is completely legal, as is popping Beating the Odds to reverse a Claw from hand, etc.
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Offline W4RP47H

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Re: Hello all some rules questions part 1
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2018, 06:34:34 PM »
Thanks Nate, that is the answer I was looking for.