Author Topic: Need help on a timing issue  (Read 315 times)

Online darkdestiny91

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Need help on a timing issue
« on: April 14, 2018, 09:10:13 PM »
Recently, our playgroup has been discussing how certain interactions work within the Timing Breakdown and encountered a specific situation that needed clarification.

The situation:
Opponent successfully plays a maneuver, resolves effect as per the Timing Breakdown, then player activates Managed by Paul Heyman to remove the maneuver (he has The Paul Heyman Guys in the Ring Area as well).

Question(s):
Since the maneuver is successfully played and resolves to the Ring Area, when the player activates MbPH to remove the maneuver:

a) Can he target the already-resolved maneuver? I understand the effect is being played at the stage where Sustained Damage, etc is being played. Thus, it should be able to target the maneuver if it already resolves to the Ring Area, am I correct?

b) Does the removed maneuver still do damage? The Timing Breakdown doesn't really mention if damage is still dealt if the maneuver is removed from the ring prior to damage calculation, but I believe it still is in the process of resolution thus the player takes damage even though he removed the maneuver from the Ring Area?

Thanks in advance for helping me out!

Managed by Paul Heyman
Pre-match Manager: Heel
When this card is in your Ring area, as a Mid-match Action, you may put this card into your Ringside pile, you must discard 1 card, and then put 1 non-Backlash-deck card in your opponent's Ring area into his Ringside pile.
Universally Unique
F: 0      D: 0

The Paul Heyman Guys     (Brock, Cesaro, CM Punk, Ryback)
Pre-match Event / Mid-match Action
This card is packed as a Pre-match or Mid-match. Cannot be blanked.
Your I'm a Paul Heyman Guy! is -3F and can only be reversed by Unique reversals; when your Paul Heyman's Shoot Promo would be removed from the game, put it on the bottom of your Arsenal instead; and when you successfully play or Activate a card with "Heyman" in the title, you may Promo: 3.
ACE:  When you Promo, you may put this card in your Ringside and then put 1 card not chosen in your hand and up to 1 card not chosen on the bottom of your Arsenal instead.
During your turn when this card is in your Ringside, you may put it into your Backlash and end your turn.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique

Offline dilbert505

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Re: Need help on a timing issue
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 09:23:58 PM »
I can solve your timing issue in one: You don't have the Most Recent Printing of Managed by Paul Heyman.

The card was reprinted in Survivor Series 3, with the following wording (modifications in bold)

Managed by Paul Heyman
Pre-match Manager: Heel
When this card is in your Ring area, during your turn you may discard 1 card and put this card into your Ringside Pile, and then put 1 non-Backlash-deck card in your opponent's Ring area into his Ringside pile.
Universally Unique
F: 0      D: 0

Managed by Paul Heyman cannot be triggered before the end of your opponent's turn. The card, damage and all, must fully resolve before the turn can end, so there is no way to trigger it before damage.

As a general rule, any ACE that uses the old template "as a Mid-Match Action" can only be activated on your turn.
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Offline CreedP

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Re: Need help on a timing issue
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2018, 09:43:34 PM »
I think the wrong card was referenced.  Likely this is what we're actually talking about:

I'm a Paul Heyman Guy
Mid-match Action + Action: Run-in
Cannot be packed by Paul Heyman.  Cannot be reversed when you have a card with 'Heyman' in the title in your Ring.
Search your Arsenal and Ringside for Paul Heyman's Shoot Promo, reveal it, put it into your hand, and shuffle; that card is -4F and cannot be reversed.
When your opponent has at least 15 greater Fortitude and he successfully plays a maneuver, you may ignore the 'during your turn' text on your Managed by Paul Heyman and immediately Activate it.
F: 3     D: 0     Unique     Multi

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Online darkdestiny91

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Re: Need help on a timing issue
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2018, 01:43:22 AM »
I think the wrong card was referenced.  Likely this is what we're actually talking about:

I'm a Paul Heyman Guy
Mid-match Action + Action: Run-in
Cannot be packed by Paul Heyman.  Cannot be reversed when you have a card with 'Heyman' in the title in your Ring.
Search your Arsenal and Ringside for Paul Heyman's Shoot Promo, reveal it, put it into your hand, and shuffle; that card is -4F and cannot be reversed.
When your opponent has at least 15 greater Fortitude and he successfully plays a maneuver, you may ignore the 'during your turn' text on your Managed by Paul Heyman and immediately Activate it.
F: 3     D: 0     Unique     Multi

CREED

Ah yes, I was checking for someone in my playgroup and forgot to actually check if the text was the right one. Just wanted to ask if it works on your opponent's turn in such a case, how would the timing breakdown function?

Offline BigPimpin

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Re: Need help on a timing issue
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2018, 07:38:21 AM »
Short answer
Yes you can target the successfully played maneuver.  If you do, its text and damage do not apply, but outside effects will.

Explanation
It's a game rule that a card that leaves the Ring no longer has an effect on the game (unless the card moves itself as part of the timing sequence - see Iron Will).

Let's walk through the timing breakdown together assuming you meet the requirements to use Managed by Paul Heyman as the question asks. I'll quote the relevant steps at the bottom for reference.

Timing Step 6 - opponent's maneuver is successful and goes to the Ring.
Timing Step 7a - any outside "successfully played" effects for the player who played the maneuver fire - draw 1 for Managed by Lita, recover one for Flawless Execution, Heidenreich Superstar Ability, etc.
Timing Step 7b - now any of YOUR outside effects for his successfully played maneuvers fire.  This is where the text of Paul Heyman Guy works.  Managed by Paul Heyman activates immediately (and your opponent cannot reverse it because he cannot use reversal effects on his turn).  Since the successful maneuver is in the Ring as of Step 6, it can be targeted as long as it's a non-Backlash card (as Managed by Paul Heyman can't touch Backlash deck cards).   

Here's where the above game rule comes in.  The second you kick the maneuver to the Ringside, it no longer affects the game, ending the timing breakdown.  Which means that the text (normally resolved in step 8 ) and damage (step 9) are not there anymore, so there's nothing to resolve.

Quote
6 The card is now 'Successfully Played' and enters the Ring Area.  If this card is reversing the card in question (it is not the first reversal to a Multi, it is not Over Sell Maneuver), the affected maneuver is now considered reversed. (Any text on the card and any Traits on the card are considered to be in your Ring Area after this step is complete. This excludes text that would modify or trigger in any of the first six steps.)
6a Some cards are put into the Ringside Pile or other area instead of going to the Ring Area (Iron Will etc.) The Timing Breakdown still continues as normal, these cards never enter the Ring Area.  They will resolve during the text resolution (Step 8) at that time, and will still resolve to its destination even if blanked.

7a Effects you control (other than this card's text taking place when played or when successful played) that trigger on a Successfully Played card take place. In the event of more than one effect, you choose which order they occur.
7b Effects your opponent controls that trigger on a Successfully Played card take place. Opponent chooses the order. (This is where cards such as Over Sell Maneuver and Sustained Damage are played.)

8 Apply effects listed on the card, unless these effects take place ‘when played’ or ‘when this card is in’ a specified area.

9a Chance for activated damage modification (Sustained Damage, Los Guerreros)
9b Damage is overturned one card at a time. Appropriate reversals may be overturned.  (This is also the Step where cards are overturned for Raw & Ready, Over Sell Maneuver, and other cards that replace damage with overturning cards.)
9c Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the player of the original card (searching for a Chain card, for example)
9d Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the opponent (Jamie Noble’s superstar ability, activating There’s No Holding Me Back)
9e Any ‘end the turn’ effects are resolved, along with any effects triggered by ending the turn.
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Online darkdestiny91

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Re: Need help on a timing issue
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2018, 09:54:58 PM »
Short answer
Yes you can target the successfully played maneuver.  If you do, its text and damage do not apply, but outside effects will.

Explanation
It's a game rule that a card that leaves the Ring no longer has an effect on the game (unless the card moves itself as part of the timing sequence - see Iron Will).

Let's walk through the timing breakdown together assuming you meet the requirements to use Managed by Paul Heyman as the question asks. I'll quote the relevant steps at the bottom for reference.

Timing Step 6 - opponent's maneuver is successful and goes to the Ring.
Timing Step 7a - any outside "successfully played" effects for the player who played the maneuver fire - draw 1 for Managed by Lita, recover one for Flawless Execution, Heidenreich Superstar Ability, etc.
Timing Step 7b - now any of YOUR outside effects for his successfully played maneuvers fire.  This is where the text of Paul Heyman Guy works.  Managed by Paul Heyman activates immediately (and your opponent cannot reverse it because he cannot use reversal effects on his turn).  Since the successful maneuver is in the Ring as of Step 6, it can be targeted as long as it's a non-Backlash card (as Managed by Paul Heyman can't touch Backlash deck cards).   

Here's where the above game rule comes in.  The second you kick the maneuver to the Ringside, it no longer affects the game, ending the timing breakdown.  Which means that the text (normally resolved in step 8 ) and damage (step 9) are not there anymore, so there's nothing to resolve.

Quote
6 The card is now 'Successfully Played' and enters the Ring Area.  If this card is reversing the card in question (it is not the first reversal to a Multi, it is not Over Sell Maneuver), the affected maneuver is now considered reversed. (Any text on the card and any Traits on the card are considered to be in your Ring Area after this step is complete. This excludes text that would modify or trigger in any of the first six steps.)
6a Some cards are put into the Ringside Pile or other area instead of going to the Ring Area (Iron Will etc.) The Timing Breakdown still continues as normal, these cards never enter the Ring Area.  They will resolve during the text resolution (Step 8) at that time, and will still resolve to its destination even if blanked.

7a Effects you control (other than this card's text taking place when played or when successful played) that trigger on a Successfully Played card take place. In the event of more than one effect, you choose which order they occur.
7b Effects your opponent controls that trigger on a Successfully Played card take place. Opponent chooses the order. (This is where cards such as Over Sell Maneuver and Sustained Damage are played.)

8 Apply effects listed on the card, unless these effects take place ‘when played’ or ‘when this card is in’ a specified area.

9a Chance for activated damage modification (Sustained Damage, Los Guerreros)
9b Damage is overturned one card at a time. Appropriate reversals may be overturned.  (This is also the Step where cards are overturned for Raw & Ready, Over Sell Maneuver, and other cards that replace damage with overturning cards.)
9c Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the player of the original card (searching for a Chain card, for example)
9d Effects generated from resolving a maneuver’s damage may be performed by the opponent (Jamie Noble’s superstar ability, activating There’s No Holding Me Back)
9e Any ‘end the turn’ effects are resolved, along with any effects triggered by ending the turn.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Really appreciate it!!