Author Topic: Faith ACE  (Read 693 times)

Offline niiiiick

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Faith ACE
« on: March 02, 2018, 10:13:49 AM »
Faith
Pre-match Event
Cannot be blanked.  Can be played regardless of your opponent's effects.
ACE:  When he plays a maneuver, you may reveal an applicable reversal from hand or Backlash with printed Fortitude up to your Fortitude Rating; if you do, put it under this card and his maneuver is successfully played.
ACE:  Once during each of your turns, you may put a card under this card into your Ringside, and then when your next card played this turn is a non-Unique maneuver, it can only be reversed from Arsenal; this effect cannot be reversed by non-Superstar-specific cards.
ACE:  Once during each of your turns, you may reveal 1 Superstar-specific card in your hand, and then put it on the bottom of your Arsenal and draw 1 card.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Permanent
V5

If I use the first ACE on Faith, would I still be able to sustain or play oversell to that maneuver?

Edit: another as well, I know the ruling about applicable reversals, but say I have Plan B or Divine in my hand that reverse on overturn, would I still be able to reveal it? My understanding of applicable reversal leads me to say yes, but wanna verify
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 10:16:10 AM by niiiiick »

Online dilbert505

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2018, 10:28:55 AM »
Piggybacking off of Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiick's edit, would it be possible to get a definition of applicable added to the VFAQ? I notice that there isn't one there, or in the Omni, and while a definition can be pieced together from other rulings that reference the word, it'd be great to have one definitive source to refer back to.
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Online BigPimpin

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2018, 10:34:11 AM »
Question 1: Short answer: Yes.  Long answer, you trigger the ACE in step 2f of the timing breakdown, and all it does at that point is tell the breakdown in step 5a that you can proceed to step 6 immediately.  All the effects you mentioned (play Over Sell, play Sustained Damage, activate Sustained Damage) all happen after step 6, and can be done as allowed by normal game rules.

Question 2: Short answer: they don't work.  Long answer: the precedent here is Waist Lock OG - text below:

24/150
Waist Lock
Submission
When successfully played, choose a card in your opponent's Ring area. When this card is in your Ring area, the chosen card is considered to have blank text.
You cannot play the card titled Maintain Hold immediately after this card.
When this card is in your Ring area, on your opponent's turn he may discard an applicable Reversal card to put this card into your Ringside pile.
F: 0      D: 1

Waist Lock (original version)
-This card may blank any card in your opponent’s Ring Area, except a card with the RMS.
-If Apply Illegal Leverage is played after this card, the player may choose a different card to blank, but the card will become unblanked at the end of your turn.
-An ‘applicable reversal’ is a Reversal that can be played from hand that could reverse a D: 1 Submission Maneuver.

So in Waist Lock's case, you could discard Elbow or Clumsy Opponent, but you couldn't discard Always Have A Plan B because the reversal could not be used to reverse a D:1 Submission from hand.

Applying the same logic - if the opponent played Shoot Forearm, you couldn't turn around and play Always Have A Plan B to stop that card, so it's not considered an applicable reversal, and therefore you can't use it for Faith.  You could do it with Don't Be A Douchebag or (if you have 3F) Me Llamo...Armando Alejandro Estrada! because both of those could be played from hand to reverse a Shoot Forearm. 
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Offline niiiiick

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 10:38:59 AM »
Thanks, I guess the only other time I've looked at applicable reversal is Takers card...which since that's on the overturn, it would work but since this was coming from hand, wasn't too sure

Offline Daeva

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2018, 11:45:23 AM »
A card is an "applicable reversal" if it is able to reverse the card in question from the zone in which it currently resides. This is why Sloppy... Very Sloppy (barring any outside modifications) is an applicable reversal for Faith and Waist Lock's effects and not for Throttled's effect; it only works from hand, and Faith and Waist Lock both care about things in your hand, while Throttled cares about things in your Arsenal. Plan B and Divine Intervention only work from Arsenal, so they're not applicable unless they're in the Arsenal.

Important note: A reversal is "applicable" regardless of its Fortitude requirement or your Fortitude Rating. New Nexus can shove Sloppy under Faith at 0F and it still works fine. This is why Faith specifies that the applicable reversal has to be your Fortitude Rating or less.

EDIT: The VFAQ now contains an entry on "applicable reversals," based on this answer.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 10:19:48 PM by Daeva »
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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2018, 11:53:00 AM »
A card is an "applicable reversal" if it is able to reverse the card in question from the zone in which it currently resides. This is why Sloppy... Very Sloppy (barring any outside modifications) is an applicable reversal for Faith and Waist Lock's effects and not for Throttled's effect; it only works from hand, and Faith and Waist Lock both care about things in your hand, while Throttled cares about things in your Arsenal. Plan B and Divine Intervention only work from Arsenal, so they're not applicable unless they're in the Arsenal.

Important note: A reversal is "applicable" regardless of its Fortitude requirement or your Fortitude Rating. New Nexus can shove Sloppy under Faith at 0F and it still works fine.

EDIT: The VFAQ now contains an entry on "applicable reversals," based on this answer.

Faith specifies that the card has to have Fortitude equal to or less than yours, right?
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Offline Daeva

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2018, 10:19:11 PM »
Yup, and the fact that "applicable" is Fortitude-agnostic is why it has to say so. I'll strikethrough that part of the text.
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Offline niiiiick

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 09:09:08 PM »
Don't mean to revive this...but this ruling goes the other way as well? Say my opponent plays German Suplex TB (with it's restriction active), I can't reveal something like A Revolution of the Mind for Faith?

Also the same question regarding a move protected by Vickie? They play a Diving Bulldog TB with Vickie, I can't reveal an Elbow to the Face, correct?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 09:10:46 PM by niiiiick »

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2018, 05:23:09 AM »
Don't mean to revive this...but this ruling goes the other way as well? Say my opponent plays German Suplex TB (with it's restriction active), I can't reveal something like A Revolution of the Mind for Faith?

Also the same question regarding a move protected by Vickie? They play a Diving Bulldog TB with Vickie, I can't reveal an Elbow to the Face, correct?

Definitely correct in the case of German Suplex - you couldn't reveal Revolution of the Mind with the counter text of German active because the RotM is coming from a zone (hand) that is blocked off, but you could reveal, say, This Is Going Nowhere Fast or Power Struggle from Backlash deck, because that zone is open to you.

In the case of Vickie, I'll wait for confirmation, because I'm not sure if an "opponent play restriction" is the same as a "reversal restriction" in this case.  Gun to my head I'd say that the Elbow was not a legal reveal for Faith vs. a Vickie-protected maneuver, because it is not able to reverse the Diving Bulldog from the hand zone.  But my confidence level in that ruling is low enough to wait for Nate's final ruling.
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Offline Daeva

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2018, 11:07:17 AM »
As far as Vickie goes, precedent is unclear. I'll chat up Creed and figure something out for you guys.
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Offline niiiiick

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2018, 12:21:27 PM »
Don't mean to revive this...but this ruling goes the other way as well? Say my opponent plays German Suplex TB (with it's restriction active), I can't reveal something like A Revolution of the Mind for Faith?

Also the same question regarding a move protected by Vickie? They play a Diving Bulldog TB with Vickie, I can't reveal an Elbow to the Face, correct?

Definitely correct in the case of German Suplex - you couldn't reveal Revolution of the Mind with the counter text of German active because the RotM is coming from a zone (hand) that is blocked off, but you could reveal, say, This Is Going Nowhere Fast or Power Struggle from Backlash deck, because that zone is open to you.

In the case of Vickie, I'll wait for confirmation, because I'm not sure if an "opponent play restriction" is the same as a "reversal restriction" in this case.  Gun to my head I'd say that the Elbow was not a legal reveal for Faith vs. a Vickie-protected maneuver, because it is not able to reverse the Diving Bulldog from the hand zone.  But my confidence level in that ruling is low enough to wait for Nate's final ruling.

I never realized Faith said Backlash too until you said that lol thanks!

Offline niiiiick

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 05:27:08 PM »
We're you guys able to figure out a ruling for vickie protected moves?

Offline CreedP

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2018, 11:18:13 PM »
I've been unavailable, moving into a new upstairs apartment all weekend, mostly by myself.

I should be available for consultation later this week after it settles down, though I doubt this is a question that will pop up that much during the wait.

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Offline niiiiick

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2018, 05:48:06 AM »
I've been unavailable, moving into a new upstairs apartment all weekend, mostly by myself.

I should be available for consultation later this week after it settles down, though I doubt this is a question that will pop up that much during the wait.

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Yeah, doubtful, we were just having another discussion about them so I just brought it back up to see.

Online dilbert505

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 02:15:21 PM »
Not to dredge this back up, but I'm still slightly unclear on one point, and I want to wrap my head around it. If my opponent plays a Grapple that can be reversed from Backlash, but it's his first maneuver of the turn/he has less fortitude, does Backlash! still count as an applicable reversal? I have the Fortitude to play it (which is relevant for Faith, if not for applicability in general), it's coming from a valid zone, it would reverse a Grapple under optimal conditions, but I fail to meet the can only be played requirement printed on the reversal.

Basically, does applicable ignore can only be played text on the reversal?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 02:18:03 PM by dilbert505 »
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Offline Daeva

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2018, 04:10:32 PM »
Creed and I finally had a chance to discuss applicable reversals. Here's where we ended up.

Our consensus is that "applicable" means "I could use this, where it is, to reverse the current card." Prior precedent tells us that you don't need Fortitude for a card to be applicable. Aside from that, other legality checks still apply; so Vickie keeps things from being applicable (because she's telling you that you can't use that card), and Backlash is only applicable to not-the-first-maneuver and if you're behind on Fortitude.

In short: we want to avoid making this a "rulesy" topic with a lot of ignore-this and don't-consider-that, cut it down to a very straightforward sort of thing that parallels actually playing the game.
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Offline Daeva

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Re: Faith ACE
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2018, 11:33:50 PM »
Creed and I finally had a chance to discuss applicable reversals. Here's where we ended up.

Our consensus is that "applicable" means "I could use this, where it is, to reverse the current card." Prior precedent tells us that you don't need Fortitude for a card to be applicable. Aside from that, other legality checks still apply; so Vickie keeps things from being applicable (because she's telling you that you can't use that card), and Backlash is only applicable to not-the-first-maneuver and if you're behind on Fortitude.

In short: we want to avoid making this a "rulesy" topic with a lot of ignore-this and don't-consider-that, cut it down to a very straightforward sort of thing that parallels actually playing the game.

No, Mitch, Throttled + FLAU does not kill the entire deck, and we can both read the OmniFAQ.
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