Author Topic: KMA Club vs. New Nexus  (Read 703 times)

Online dilbert505

  • Posts: 2339
  • +49/-42
  • The Prince of Insufficient Light
    • View Profile
KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« on: February 28, 2018, 06:09:35 PM »
Vince McMahon’s "Kiss My A$%" Club     (Vince McMahon logo)
Pre-match Event
This card cannot be blanked.
Your opponent’s Managed by Eric Bischoff is blank.
At the end of the Pre-match phase, he may randomly discard 2 cards; if he does, draw up to 2 cards or put 1 card from your Ringside into your hand. If he does not, before each of your Draw Segments, he overturns 1 card.
Your Zero Tolerance: Kiss My Magnificent A%$ cards cannot be reversed by Elbow to the Face.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique


Initiation into New Nexus
Backstage Card
Cannot be packed when packing I'm Gonna Break You.
Remove any number of Backlash cards from the game.  If you removed at least 3 cards from the game, you may increase your Starting Hand Size by +4.  If you removed at least 6 cards, you start the game. If you removed at least 9 cards, his effects that would make you discard cards are reduced to 1. If you removed at least 12 cards, he cannot respond to your first printed F:0 D:6- maneuver played of the game, and after its damage is applied, end your turn.
Unique     RMS logo

Bolding the relevant parts of the cards.

So, in a game last night, I ran into this situation. I was New Nexus, had removed 12 to Initiation, and he had out KMA Club. I wanted to randomly discard cards to avoid the burn, but Initiation reduces his effects that would make me discard to 1.

I saw two possible ways this could play out, and was unsure which was the intended result.

1) Initiation reduces the random discard of 2 on KMA Club to a random discard of 1, satisfying the cost and allowing me to avoid the burn.
2) KMA Club requires a discard of 2, but Initiation mandates a maximum discard of 1. Since 2 cards cannot be discarded, I cannot complete the effect, and have to burn every turn.

To get through the match, my opponent and I agreed that we would play as though the first option is correct, but I'd like to be sure we interpreted the ruling correctly in case I run into something similar in the future.
Universally Recognized as a Mature and Responsible Adult.

Playing on Lackey? I'm on US Eastern Time; you can check what time it is for me here.

Offline Drywall

  • TCO Donor
  • ****
  • Posts: 2010
  • +76/-69
  • 16-bit romantic, proprietor of Geek Street.
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2018, 08:30:17 AM »
The effect for Initiation is worded towards a forced discard; since KMA says "may" it doesn't apply here. You can still discard 2 cars to avoid the burn.
I'm the wind, baby.

Offline DebuRaito

  • Posts: 653
  • +17/-4
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 11:30:05 AM »
Drywall is incorrect.

You may choose the discarding option and discard 1 card only instead.

Initiation replace all discard generated from opponent's effect from # to 1. So even if a multiple discard is an optional choice, New Nexus may still choose it and discard 1 card only.

Offline Drywall

  • TCO Donor
  • ****
  • Posts: 2010
  • +76/-69
  • 16-bit romantic, proprietor of Geek Street.
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 12:58:43 PM »
Drywall is incorrect.

You may choose the discarding option and discard 1 card only instead.

Initiation replace all discard generated from opponent's effect from # to 1. So even if a multiple discard is an optional choice, New Nexus may still choose it and discard 1 card only.

My logic stems from card text:

Vince McMahon’s "Kiss My A$%" Club     (Vince McMahon logo)
Pre-match Event
This card cannot be blanked.
Your opponent’s Managed by Eric Bischoff is blank.
At the end of the Pre-match phase, he may randomly discard 2 cards; if he does, draw up to 2 cards or put 1 card from your Ringside into your hand. If he does not, before each of your Draw Segments, he overturns 1 card.
Your Zero Tolerance: Kiss My Magnificent A%$ cards cannot be reversed by Elbow to the Face.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique


Initiation into New Nexus
Backstage Card
Cannot be packed when packing I'm Gonna Break You.
Remove any number of Backlash cards from the game.  If you removed at least 3 cards from the game, you may increase your Starting Hand Size by +4.  If you removed at least 6 cards, you start the game. If you removed at least 9 cards, his effects that would make you discard cards are reduced to 1. If you removed at least 12 cards, he cannot respond to your first printed F:0 D:6- maneuver played of the game, and after its damage is applied, end your turn.
Unique     RMS logo

I'm reading "make you" as a forced discard.  KMA isn't a forced discard, it's an option. Mind you, I'm far from a rules guru and I could be wrong.
I'm the wind, baby.

Offline DebuRaito

  • Posts: 653
  • +17/-4
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2018, 01:56:22 AM »
Any updates from the Rules Gurus in here to confirm/deny my explanations?

Offline CreedP

  • Voice of Reason
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 21064
  • +492/-369
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2018, 07:29:23 AM »
I've been unavailable, moving into a new upstairs apartment all weekend, mostly by myself.

I should be available for consultation later this week after it settles down, though I doubt this is a question that will pop up that much during the wait.

CREED
V9: NXT Takeover ("A" Section) - Coming Dec. 25

"Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world." - Bill Bullard

Offline Daeva

  • Virtual Contributor, Level 4 Judge, Hope Ender
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10484
  • +317/-214
  • On Balance, Off Balance, Doesn't Matter
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 04:06:15 PM »
Creed and I talked this one over, and the consensus is clear: Drywall is correct. Initiation triggers off of Forced discard. If you have an option to not discard cards, the discard isn't forced, and Initiation doesn't apply. KMA is not a forced discard, because you could choose not to discard, so Initiation doesn't interact.
Nate Weiss, Rules Manager & Dream Killer
"You're no fun." -Creed
Timing question? Look here.
Evidence is everything in a court of law. Evidence is also everything in the Rules Forum.

Offline DebuRaito

  • Posts: 653
  • +17/-4
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 12:25:24 AM »
Follow up qns: is chain considered an optional discard then? Since we could easily argue that it is an optional choice for New Nexus to discard to reverse or just give up reversing from hand/backlash.

Offline Daeva

  • Virtual Contributor, Level 4 Judge, Hope Ender
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10484
  • +317/-214
  • On Balance, Off Balance, Doesn't Matter
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 10:03:46 AM »
OmniFAQ:

Chain (Trait)
-When you play a Chain card, your opponent may discard 2 cards. If he does, he can reverse it from his hand or Backlash deck. If he does not, it cannot be reversed from his hand or Backlash deck.  When you successfully play a Chain card and damage has been applied, you may discard 2 cards and then search your Arsenal for 1 Chain card, reveal it to him, put it into your hand, and shuffle your Arsenal. 

The discard portion of the Chain trait is worded just like KMA, so it interacts with Initiation in the same way: it doesn't.
Nate Weiss, Rules Manager & Dream Killer
"You're no fun." -Creed
Timing question? Look here.
Evidence is everything in a court of law. Evidence is also everything in the Rules Forum.

Offline DebuRaito

  • Posts: 653
  • +17/-4
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2018, 12:48:29 AM »
Recently found something on the omnifaq regarding ego boost that may have contradiction to Daeva's quote on the chain trait.

-If Ego Boost is discarded to allow the reversal of a Chain maneuver, the draw effect will trigger. The Chain trait creates a discard forced by the opponent in order to play a reversal.

So the bold part from the snip of the omnifaq clearly states that discard for chain is considered a forced discard generated by the opponent.

Please advise. Thanks.

Offline Drywall

  • TCO Donor
  • ****
  • Posts: 2010
  • +76/-69
  • 16-bit romantic, proprietor of Geek Street.
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2018, 04:12:09 AM »
Recently found something on the omnifaq regarding ego boost that may have contradiction to Daeva's quote on the chain trait.

-If Ego Boost is discarded to allow the reversal of a Chain maneuver, the draw effect will trigger. The Chain trait creates a discard forced by the opponent in order to play a reversal.

So the bold part from the snip of the omnifaq clearly states that discard for chain is considered a forced discard generated by the opponent.

Please advise. Thanks.

You're reaching here.
I'm the wind, baby.

Offline niiiiick

  • Posts: 947
  • +16/-8
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2018, 06:53:12 AM »
If you're gonna use the omniFAQ to rule on the chain trait, best to use the actual omniFAQ entry for the chain trait...seems like a good idea to me!

Chain (Trait)
-When you play a Chain card, your opponent may discard 2 cards. If he does, he can reverse it from his hand or Backlash deck. If he does not, it cannot be reversed from his hand or Backlash deck.  When you successfully play a Chain card and damage has been applied, you may discard 2 cards and then search your Arsenal for 1 Chain card, reveal it to him, put it into your hand, and shuffle your Arsenal. 
-For clarification, the Chain trait is an effect that forces a discard when a player attempts to play a reversal from Hand or Backlash deck.  However, the Potentiality Rule will not see a forced discard or search effect as this does not appear in the card text.  As such, cards like Ax Kick or Faceplant cannot reverse a Chain card just because it has the Chain trait.
-Chain is a sub-class Trait like Set-up.  It will only affect part of a hybrid card, as indicated below the card’s title.
-Beating the Odds also does not affect the reversal restrictions generated by the Chain trait.
-You may search for another Chain card even if your Chain card was reversed while overturning, since this is considered to be the conclusion of the damage portion.
-You only need to discard 2 cards to be able to reverse a Chain Multi.
-Discarding to the Chain trait can include a reversal that can be played from the Ringside pile (which can then be played), or to meet the requirement for Heat cards in the Ringside pile.
-You can discard 2 cards without playing a reversal.  EXAMPLE:  A player could discard 2 Ego Boosts just to draw cards from the discard effect.

No forced discard with the chain trait

Offline CreedP

  • Voice of Reason
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 21064
  • +492/-369
    • View Profile
Re: KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 08:21:54 AM »
Quote was used out of context, Daeva's ruling restated as correct, yet again.  Locking this now.

CREED
V9: NXT Takeover ("A" Section) - Coming Dec. 25

"Opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding. The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world." - Bill Bullard