Author Topic: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?  (Read 325 times)

Offline deadend7786

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Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« on: February 08, 2018, 02:15:25 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm curious to know how one should start when building a deck, or how to analyze strategies for a competitive edge in Raw deal.

I played L5R, MTG, and Netrunner at competitive levels for 10+ years and would consider myself a good player in those games and understand how to go about building decks, but I'm a complete beginner when it comes to Raw deal; only played from the original set to Backlash and just came back to the game recently.

To give an example, when building a Raw deal deck, after deciding my Superstar, I usually just look at good reversals and maneuvers (multi, chain, good abilities) and throw them all together; the same thing with the backlash deck. I'm assuming there's more to this game than just throwing a bunch of "good" cards together and hoping it works.

To follow up on the previous question, what archetype of decks/strategies are there? For example, in magic, there's control, aggro, midrange, and etc.

Thanks,
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 02:48:39 PM by deadend7786 »

Offline BigPimpin

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 03:09:20 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm curious to know how one should start when building a deck, or how to analyze strategies for a competitive edge in Raw deal.

I played L5R, MTG, and Netrunner at competitive levels for 10+ years and would consider myself a good player in those games and understand how to go about building decks, but I'm a complete beginner when it comes to Raw deal; only played from the original set to Backlash and just came back to the game recently.

To give an example, when building a Raw deal deck, after deciding my Superstar, I usually just look at good reversals and maneuvers (multi, chain, good abilities) and throw them all together; the same thing with the backlash deck. I'm assuming there's more to this game than just throwing a bunch of "good" cards together and hoping it works.

To follow up on the previous question, what archetype of decks/strategies are there? For example, in magic, there's control, aggro, midrange, and etc.

Thanks,

I think this discussion could be a long one, but to keep it short since I'm at work: basically you can either pick your means of winning first or your superstar first, and you typically can build around that.  Most superstars only do a couple of these strategies well, so choosing a superstar is analogous to picking one of the below strategies (or others I may not be thinking of).  Also, a lot of these combine certain aspects.  For example, Bookerman is a "Tribal War" combined with "Prisoner's Dilemma".

Some deck archetypes:

Aggressive:
-Crash Aggro: You throw moves every turn, sometimes two or more per turn, and power through reversal cards.  Examples: Finlay, Road Warriors, Ryback, Rey Jr, anyone who searches for moves every turn.
-Prisoner's Dilemma: Your opponent has to make the tough choice - reverse your card and suffer a penalty, or don't reverse and suffer a different penalty.  Sometimes combined with Crash Aggro.  Examples: Chain, Volley, Goldust, Shelton Benjamin, Bookerman

Combo
-OTK: As the title says, you pull off a combo in one turn, usually involving actions or antics, that ends the game.  Less concerned with cards in the opponent's Arsenal, there's usually a specific "win" card they shoot for.  Decks that can continue their turn are particularly good at this, such as Rey Jr.  Examples: Divas: The Next Generation, That's It!, Divas Rule, etc.

Middle-Aggressive:
-Rope-a-dope: Your strategy is based on reversing your opponent's cards in order to throw a perked maneuver as the first card of your next turn.  Your maneuvers are usually efficient, and therefore you don't need a ton of them, opening up more exotic reversals.  Examples: Braun Strowman, Johnny Nitro, NXT Arrival.
-Tribe War: filling your deck with a specific maneuver type and the perks to help you win.  Each "tribe" has a specific win condition, either pounding someone to oblivion or specific cards that work well with the tribe.  Having a superstar that directly ties into these archetypes is helpful here.  Examples: Your Freak'n Hero, Mexicools, Bookerman
-Denial: You're going to prevent your opponent from playing his key cards, and therefore render his deck useless.  Examples: Bret Hart, Boogeyman, Kill The Beat John Cena
-Soft Lock: You reach a game state in which the opponent cannot do anything to improve his chances of winning - regardless of what he does, he literally cannot win.  Examples: Nidia.

Less Aggressive:
-Burn: Damage is a means to a Fortitude Rating, at which point you'll use "overturn" cards to kill your opponent.  Examples: Backfire, Enter the Stratus-phere, Mae Young, etc.
-Tank: Your superstar does a lot of damage reduction and can take an amazing amount of punishment.  Mostly Superstar-based as most of the better damage reduction mechanics are included on superstar-specifics.  Examples: Bray Wyatt, Sabu,
-Live Forever: Your opponent only has 30 maneuvers in his deck, right?  You'll just reverse and recover every time he throws something.  Once he's out of moves, he's usually a sitting duck.  This style often uses Ringside manipulation and less-dangerous effects (ACE's, for example) to keep alive.  Examples: The Rock, Home Team, Jamie Noble, Snitsky
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 03:13:04 PM by BigPimpin »
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Offline deadend7786

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 12:33:51 PM »
Wow! Thanks for your response -- that was extremely helpful.

When you're talking about "tribes" I am assuming that is card types such as chain, volley, or BASH...is that right?

So far, I've made 2 decks: Ultimate Warrior, B2B Heel, and Hulk Hogan, Volley, Heel. The ultimate warrior deck was pretty easy to build because of B2B, and idk why I went with Volley for Hogan tbh, but the volley stuff seemed kind of cool I guess. I also have Chris Jericho stuff as well, who is one of my favorite wrestlers.

Could you give me a couple archetypes or design ideas for Hogan or Jericho?

Offline dilbert505

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 01:30:45 PM »
Wow! Thanks for your response -- that was extremely helpful.

When you're talking about "tribes" I am assuming that is card types such as chain, volley, or BASH...is that right?

So far, I've made 2 decks: Ultimate Warrior, B2B Heel, and Hulk Hogan, Volley, Heel. The ultimate warrior deck was pretty easy to build because of B2B, and idk why I went with Volley for Hogan tbh, but the volley stuff seemed kind of cool I guess. I also have Chris Jericho stuff as well, who is one of my favorite wrestlers.

Could you give me a couple archetypes or design ideas for Hogan or Jericho?

Hogan's a bit trickier, since there are two Hulk Hogan face cards.

"Hollywood" Hulk Hogan
Starting Hand Size: 9     Superstar Value: 6
Superstar Ability: You cannot play non-unique non-Strike maneuvers that are not titled Headlock Takedown, Body Slam, Press Slam, Scoop Slam, Standing Side Headlock, or Elbow Drop.

   ---OR---
"Hollywood" Hulk Hogan - Throwback
Starting Hand Size: 7     Superstar Value: 6
Throwback Superstar Ability:  You cannot pack Submission maneuvers or High Risk maneuvers.
Once during each of your turns, you may overturn 3 cards and then search your Arsenal for 1 non-unique non-Throwback Maneuver card, reveal it to your opponent, put it into your hand, and shuffle your Arsenal.

The original Hogan has a larger Hand Size, has slightly different restrictions than the throwback version, and his ability doesn't really guide him to anything in particular, other than not playing non-unique non-Strike maneuvers. That leads to Hogan as either a Volley deck (as Volley maneuvers are mostly strikes), or a Classic deck (as all Classic maneuvers are Unique.) He can also be built as a Red Wall deck (a term for a deck constructed primarily of reversals), generally running 3x It's Time for a Great American BASH to secure early Fortitude. This is convenient, because Hulk's Backstage card, The Hulkster: American Made, allows him to play any Pre-Match card with "American" in the title without taking up a Pre-Match slot.

Note that the way OG Hogan is written, he may play non-unique Multi maneuvers that are at least partially Strikes. Shoot Kicker Hold, a Strike+Submission, is valid; Rolling Headlock Vise, a Grapple+Submission, is not.

The Throwback Hogan is slightly different, in that he has a lower Hand Size, cannot pack Submissions or High Risks (which rules out certain maneuvers OG Hogan loves, like The Maneuver of Doom), but he has the ability to search out a maneuver every turn. This fits him into the Crash Aggro type of deck BigPimpin was talking about; given that he has to overturn 3 cards to get a maneuver, he needs to have some solid recovery options as well, so you might pack a few extra Actions that put cards back into your deck (Puppies Puppies, one of the Divas (I think it's Candace, but don't quote me on that), Here Comes the Cavalry, and the like), since any turn you use your ability you are losing a minimum of 5 cards from your arsenal (your draw step, plus the 3 card overturn, plus the maneuver you search out.)

Throwback Hogan again is very good as a Volley deck, because most Volley cards are not Throwback, and again, most are Strikes. BASH again works well, because you still get American Made, and there are very good Strike and Grapple options for BASH. However, a Classic build is not as appealing here, because many of the good Classic maneuvers are Submissions and High Risks. An alternate option for Throwback Hogan might be Heat, though; your ability is going to be overturning cards, so you'll be adding more Heat cards to your ringside to fuel extra card plays. In this case, you may want to play slightly more defensively, use your ability to search out hybrid reversals to put in your hand, and rely on the cards you overturn for your ability to provide the aggro.

----

Chris Jericho, meanwhile, is going to live in the Denial/Prisoner's Dilemma/Live Forever area. His ability, combined with Would You Please Shut the Hell Up and Happy You're Here, Happier You're Gone TB, results in a 2 card random discard for your opponent every turn. Given the heavy hand destruction, he wants to use a Chain maneuver base, because once their hand is gone, your maneuvers are going to stick, and do serious damage. However, given the existence of World Tour '05, he also wants to throw Unique cards. Some decks try to maintain a balance between the two themes, other decks lean more heavily to one side or the other, but those are the two primary options when building him. If you go for the Chain route, you'll want to look for the standard Chain helpers, like Calgary, and supplement your ability with additional discard effects, along the lines of Spit at Opponent; if you shift more towards the Unique cards, you'll want to play Save_Us.X29, skip the ability change effect, and try to find a way to get the Obscenely Expensive Jeritron 5000 into play. If you get that going, your Unique cards become somewhat cheaper, and once per turn, when you hit one, you recover 3 cards and draw one. If you go with this build, you may want to include Steel Chain Shot TB, since they return to your hand when you play Unique cards, but bear in mind that Old School Cage Match TB prevents them from returning to your hand.

My preference in building Jericho is to go with the Chain build, since it is less reliant on your opponent's choices than the Unique base, but either can be made to work. It's worth trying each option and seeing which you find suits your style better.
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Offline deadend7786

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 02:32:46 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to write that, very helpful. I'm going to take your advice and see if I can string together a chain deck for Jericho since I prefer to not rely on my opponents' choices just like you.

For Hogan, I've only played one game so far against the ultimate warrior deck using the TB version; I didn't end up using his ability once so I might try the OG version. I also didn't know I could use the multi cards with submission or high risk either so thanks or pointing that out.

I guess I'll just have to play some games to get a feel for the intricacies of this game before trying to assess it at a higher level. Glad to have the insight from both of the previous posts though.

Offline dilbert505

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 02:39:54 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to write that, very helpful. I'm going to take your advice and see if I can string together a chain deck for Jericho since I prefer to not rely on my opponents' choices just like you.

For Hogan, I've only played one game so far against the ultimate warrior deck using the TB version; I didn't end up using his ability once so I might try the OG version. I also didn't know I could use the multi cards with submission or high risk either so thanks or pointing that out.

I guess I'll just have to play some games to get a feel for the intricacies of this game before trying to assess it at a higher level. Glad to have the insight from both of the previous posts though.

Glad to help. I do want to clarify quickly that Throwback Hogan and Original Hogan work differently in terms of packing restrictions.

Throwback Hogan says you cannot pack Submission or High Risk maneuvers, whereas Original Hogan says you cannot play non-unique, non-Strike maneuvers. That means that Throwback Hogan may not pack a maneuver if it is a Submission or a High Risk, even if part of it is not; however, Original Hogan may pack/play a maneuver if any part of it is a Strike, even if part of it is not.

As I mentioned, Original Hogan may play Shoot Kicker Hold, a Strike + Submission, because it is a Strike, but Throwback Hogan may not pack it, because it is a Submission. The difference comes down to wording: any maneuver that is part-Submission is a Submission; any maneuver that is part-Strike is not a non-Strike.
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Offline BigPimpin

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 04:34:25 PM »
Dilbert did a phenomenal job of talking about Jericho and Hogan.  One thing I will point out that may not be clear on the Hogan pack restrictions - Original Hogan can pack any Unique maneuver he wants.  As an example, Original Hogan can pack Classic Leg Work (Virtual 5 Unique Submission + Grapple) while Throwback Hogan cannot (because his ability says No Submissions and it's part Submission).

Also, regarding tribes, you've got the right idea: Volley would be a tribe, as would Back to Basics (since the moves are all keyed together by that card) and BASH.  They're not usually called tribes, but you being a former Magic player I figured that term would resonate a bit better than "pile of X moves".  :)
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Offline deadend7786

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2018, 01:42:06 PM »
Haha gotcha. I figured that's what you meant on the tribes.

I'll have to toy around with various versions of Hogan and see which fits my playstyle. I'm bummed and surprised that that he's not a legend. I know he has the "immortal one" card but it's not the same thing. :)

Offline dilbert505

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2018, 02:19:07 PM »
The original version of Hogan was printed before the Legend keyword existed, and I believe the creative team behind Classic didn't want to add multiple keywords to "Superstar Ability." As such, they didn't have a way to make him both a Throwback and a Legend (and they had already released Immortal One before that, and probably felt it wasn't necessary to give him the additional keyword.)

Things like "You are a Tag Team" or "You are a Legend" as part of the superstar ability only came about in Virtual, as I recall.
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Offline Daeva

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2018, 03:11:16 PM »
Dilbert recalls correctly. Also, if Throwback Hogan was a Legend, that would have diminished Immortal One a bit and made them less distinct. By making the TB Hogan a non-Legend, it gave both Superstars their own niche and role in the game.
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Offline The Hurricane

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Re: Deckbuilding strategies or concepts for RAW deal?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2018, 04:47:32 PM »
I think that's ok too, Throwback Hogan, especially if you build him BASH, gets a lot of benefits when it comes to reversals. You get No Sell, Return BASH, and 24 Inch Pythons right off the bat. Seems pretty good to me. Yeah you're limited in what BASH moves you can pack, but there's plenty of other good non-uniques too that are searchable.  :D

Also in another thread it mentioned that his WCW Backstage card makes his cards with "American" in the title not take up a slot in your Pre-Match. That's pretty solid too, especially for a BASH deck!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 04:49:32 PM by The Hurricane »
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