Author Topic: Change for the better  (Read 4793 times)

Queensryche

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Change for the better
« on: November 11, 2013, 08:37:34 AM »
The European Court of Justice rules that a person's sexual orientation is a valid reason for seeking asylum in the European Union.

"A person’s sexual orientation is a characteristic so fundamental to his identity that he should not be forced to renounce it" - THANK YOU ECJ. Clearly you guys get it

Illinois Legislators approve gay marriage. The governor has said he will sign the bill.

Hawaii is also going to approve gay marriage. That'll bring the total number of states that have entered the 21st Century to 16.

Who says the media never reports good news?

Offline The Softcore Legend

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 04:50:45 AM »
Not afraid to rock the boat with a bold statement are you?  I like that, an I agree with you. :)

Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 07:16:59 AM »
Not afraid to rock the boat with a bold statement are you?  I like that, an I agree with you. :)

Nope, not afraid at all.

Keep in mind the state I live in is one of those that hasn't entered the 21st century. The eastern and western portions of PA would be for gay marriage, but almost everyone in the middle is to the right of Attila The Hun, so it'll be a while I think.

Offline piperspitt

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 07:39:35 AM »
Your time will come. If you're in that much of a hurry just get married in another state and have your reception at home.  That's what my wife and I did when we couldn't get married in California. Rather than bash people that didn't agree with our opinion, we just found a way to make it work.  Very few people care about who somebody wants to be with, people tend to over simplify people's differing opinions and many times with false reasoning.
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Offline ins9145

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 07:50:32 AM »
The eastern and western portions of PA would be for gay marriage, but almost everyone in the middle is to the right of Attila The Hun, so it'll be a while I think.
I do not want to start an argument here, but I feel that I need to say something.  I do not believe in same sex marriage, but here in Illinois it is now the law.  I respect that the people that who wanted this, and I respect that they want to enjoy the same privileges as everyone.  I respect the fact that their sexual orientation is their belief, all I ask is that my beliefs get respected as well.  I am l not Attila for believing this way, my belief is as much a part of me as their belief is a part of them.  It seems to me that more and more people are saying if you do not follow the beliefs of today, you are not entitled to speak your mind.  Forgive me but the Constitution says we all have the right to speak our minds, and to believe as we choose.  So, my point is that I respect your belief that this is a good thing, all I ask is that you respect mine as well.
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Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 08:03:01 AM »
I'm not saying people who don't believe in gay marriage are to the right of Attila the Hun. I'm saying people in the middle of my state (Pennsylvania) are to the right of Attila the Hun because they're reactionaries who tend to believe and advocate the biggest lies the far right has come up with (ie. "The Founders intended the United States to be a Christian nation"). Not to mention they're incredibly ignorant of the real world. I should know this: I went to college in central PA.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do not wish to silence anyone. You're entitled to your opinion Ins. I might say why I disagree with you or why I believe your opinion is flawed, but I certainly don't want to silence you.

Offline ins9145

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 08:59:12 AM »
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do not wish to silence anyone. You're entitled to your opinion Ins. I might say why I disagree with you or why I believe your opinion is flawed, but I certainly don't want to silence you.
We could argue over who's oppion is flawed all day, and still not get anywhere.  What you stated at the end, is all that I ask of anyone.  I will listen to what you have to say, just show me the same respect and listen to my view as well. 
In regards to the state of PA.  I will bow to your knowledge of how the state is.  I to know some people that are so far to the right, and left, if they where playing in the outfield they would need the Hubble telescope to see home plate! So, yes I now understand your Attila statement.  Again thank you for hearing me out.
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Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 09:16:09 AM »
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do not wish to silence anyone. You're entitled to your opinion Ins. I might say why I disagree with you or why I believe your opinion is flawed, but I certainly don't want to silence you.
We could argue over who's oppion is flawed all day, and still not get anywhere.  What you stated at the end, is all that I ask of anyone.  I will listen to what you have to say, just show me the same respect and listen to my view as well. 
In regards to the state of PA.  I will bow to your knowledge of how the state is.  I to know some people that are so far to the right, and left, if they where playing in the outfield they would need the Hubble telescope to see home plate! So, yes I now understand your Attila statement.  Again thank you for hearing me out.

I have no problem doing so. I do my utmost to remain civil in arguing things.

Offline The Softcore Legend

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 03:23:02 PM »
Other peoples beliefs in things that don't effect me don't bother me at all.  I believe Civil union partnerships on the public secular side of things could be issued to any married couple, or any 2 people living together for that matter.  All it would be is a civil contract that says that the partnership holds responsibility for itself and is entitled to all of the benefits for that partnership.

Marriage, however, to me is a religious thing and should be left as just that.  A personal bond in recognized by a spiritual community.  I think all traditional marriages and non-traditional marriages should be a qualification to register for a civil union. 

The issue of Gay Marriage is one of the best examples why we need to separate church and state.  Our Christian founders knew that someday not everyone wasn't going to agree with their personal beliefs, and it shouldn't effect a person's personal right to believe and practice what their heart tells them.

Our Constitution is a pretty cool, well thought out document.  It is too bad that between the last two presidents, much of it has been ignored.

My aunt in California just got married to her partner this week in fact.  Good for her!
Some people have nothing better to do than to try and "SAVE" people by preaching at them to repent their "Wicked" ways. 

Jesus led by example and was most receptive to people that were considered sinners.

To sum it up:  Marriage is a Religious belief.  To deny a person religious rights is unconstitutional.  To not recognize a peaceful responsible marriage is discrimination.  I'd say a ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional.

So says the conservative creation science catholic guy;)

Offline Ekhari

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2013, 07:20:16 PM »
Hate to say this, but looks like it's not just Central PA that you have problems with Queensryche.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GAY_MARRIAGE_METHODISTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-11-18-20-42-17

With your post on where you live from the other thread, that puts this about a 30 minute drive, maybe a little longer. (I'm in southeast PA myself).  However, it is good to see a pastor in a church who is against that sort of thing supporting his family, regardless of doctrine.  It's always good to see people standing up for who and what they believe in, even if others don't agree.
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Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 11:03:42 PM »
Hate to say this, but looks like it's not just Central PA that you have problems with Queensryche.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GAY_MARRIAGE_METHODISTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-11-18-20-42-17

With your post on where you live from the other thread, that puts this about a 30 minute drive, maybe a little longer. (I'm in southeast PA myself).  However, it is good to see a pastor in a church who is against that sort of thing supporting his family, regardless of doctrine.  It's always good to see people standing up for who and what they believe in, even if others don't agree.

Keep in mind, when I say "Central PA", I mean "Anywhere in Pennsylvania that isn't Allegheny, Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery, or Philadelphia County." No, it doesn't make geographical sense. But neither does having the Dallas Cowboys in the NFC East. Flimsy justification, yes, but I don't care.

Anyways, in far more positive news, New Mexico can be added to the list.

For that matter, Utah has been added as well. A decision which I'm certain has caused the heads of many Mormons to explode. And for bonus points, the judge issuing the decision cited a dissent by noted Supreme Court homophobe Antonin Scalia in justifying the decision. Yep, Scalia's opinion was used against him! Hey Tony, that sound you hear? It's this.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 11:14:31 PM by Queensryche »

Offline piperspitt

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 07:12:06 AM »
Do you know what homophobe means? It does not mean somebody who disagrees with your opinion. I really doubt that so many people that get called that "fear homosexuality". Try learning a little tolerance for differing opinions. Life would be boring if we were all clones.
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Offline TimJR

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 07:34:14 AM »
From Merriam Webster:
"Homophobe: a person who hates or is afraid of homosexuals or treats them badly.
:  a person characterized by homophobia"

Then also:
"Homophobia: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals."

The term isn't one just determined by a fear, but general animus against in many forms. And while a strong term to throw at a Supreme Court Judge, Scalia has always been kind of an asshole in general.
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Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 07:51:27 AM »
Do you know what homophobe means? It does not mean somebody who disagrees with your opinion. I really doubt that so many people that get called that "fear homosexuality". Try learning a little tolerance for differing opinions. Life would be boring if we were all clones.

I have no tolerance for irrational hatred for a particular class of people. Especially when the reasons for hatred are incredibly poor ones. And considering statements that Scalia has made in the past, I stand by it. Read his dissents in Lawrence v. Texas or United States v. Windsor. It becomes clear after reading them he's a homophobe.

He's entitled to his opinion. And I'm entitled to believe he's an ass.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 07:56:37 AM by Queensryche »

Offline piperspitt

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 08:01:06 AM »
Back up his "irrational hatred" with some evidence. Calling him an ass, I have no problem with, but calling him a homophobe us an outright lie. Lying does not make your opinion carry more weight, it makes it lose any and all credibility.
  99% of people don't care if you are gay, just because they don't actively support your lifestyle does not mean that they hate you or want you to suffer. Most people don't want sexuality pushed on them at all homo or hetero. I have never seen you post one thing about hetero rights or support hetero relationships, but I wouldn't call you a heterophobe.
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Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2013, 08:24:36 AM »
Back up his "irrational hatred" with some evidence. Calling him an ass, I have no problem with, but calling him a homophobe us an outright lie. Lying does not make your opinion carry more weight, it makes it lose any and all credibility.
  99% of people don't care if you are gay, just because they don't actively support your lifestyle does not mean that they hate you or want you to suffer. Most people don't want sexuality pushed on them at all homo or hetero. I have never seen you post one thing about hetero rights or support hetero relationships, but I wouldn't call you a heterophobe.

That's because heterosexual people have never been oppressed, marginalized, or put down by society! The same reason why I dismiss so-called "men's rights" or "white rights" movements: they have never been oppressed by society! Non-white minorities, women, and gay people have been and in many cases still are being oppressed by American society, and I find that to be inhuman. It's never been the case with men, white people, or heterosexual people. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. are still present in American society at large, and many in power hold such repugnant beliefs and use their power to oppress those they don't like. That 99% figure you give is incredibly unrealistic. Hatred is everywhere, even in so-called "tolerant" areas.

As for your challenge regarding Scalia's homophobia, I have my evidence: his dissents in Lawrence v. Texas and United States v. Windsor. That will be more than enough to show my opinion is valid.

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2013, 08:42:46 AM »
You are delusional if you believe that white men have never been oppressed.  Go back to the early immigration days of the United States or back to Europe through out the many monarchies. Furthermore Judge Scalia's dissent stated nothing even close to "hating homosexuals".  Your posts paint you to be extremely intolerant of people that you disagree with, yet you pretend to rally against intolerance. I agree with many things that you say until you begin to litter your posts with lies, inaccuracies, and misleading statements.
  In this Information Age, so many people now believe themselves to be experts and I assure you that ever judge in America understands the law better than us. People throw around terms like "idiot" and other disrespectful terms to our Presidents, Governors, and Congressmen. We are becoming a very disrespectful society by shedding class and common decency. We are supposedly so much more "tolerant" than ever, yet our words tend to show otherwise. People don't need to name call or lie to express their opinion or attempt to prove their point, yet so many do. If you use the word tolerance, you should practice it as well.
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Offline Rio D

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2013, 09:15:36 AM »
I have always wondered about the 1st amendment.  What is religion if you don't believe in god?  Isn't just a series of philosophical beliefs?  Like everyone has, whether it's a liberal or conservative , Islam or Christian.  This country was founded on being able to express those views. I believe that Separation of church and state can not and does not exist.  To me religion is an idea, and People make laws based on their ideals everyday.  How can we have environmental law when some people worship nature?  How do we have capitalistic law when people worship the dollar?  It seems to me the only religion that can't make laws is Christianity.  Why is that? I'm not a Christian I'm an agnostic, libertarian.

Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2013, 09:44:05 AM »
You are delusional if you believe that white men have never been oppressed.  Go back to the early immigration days of the United States or back to Europe through out the many monarchies. Furthermore Judge Scalia's dissent stated nothing even close to "hating homosexuals".  Your posts paint you to be extremely intolerant of people that you disagree with, yet you pretend to rally against intolerance. I agree with many things that you say until you begin to litter your posts with lies, inaccuracies, and misleading statements.
  In this Information Age, so many people now believe themselves to be experts and I assure you that ever judge in America understands the law better than us. People throw around terms like "idiot" and other disrespectful terms to our Presidents, Governors, and Congressmen. We are becoming a very disrespectful society by shedding class and common decency. We are supposedly so much more "tolerant" than ever, yet our words tend to show otherwise. People don't need to name call or lie to express their opinion or attempt to prove their point, yet so many do. If you use the word tolerance, you should practice it as well.

Did you even read the entirety of those dissents? I don't mean the snippets on that web link I showed you. I mean the ENTIRETY of the dissents. Claiming that the Supreme Court has been overtaken by the non-existent "homosexual agenda" (ie. a movement to turn people to homosexuality) is a clear sign of homophobia. Some other quotes from Justice Scalia's opinions:

Quote
"Many Americans do not want persons who openly engage in homosexual conduct as partners in their business, as scoutmasters for their children, as teachers in their children's schools, or as boarders in their home. They view this as protecting themselves and their families from a lifestyle that they believe to be immoral and destructive."

"Of course it is our moral heritage that one should not hate any human being or class of human beings. But I had thought that one could consider certain conduct reprehensible—murder, for example, or polygamy, or cruelty to animals—and could exhibit even 'animus' toward such conduct. Surely that is the only sort of 'animus' at issue here: moral disapproval of homosexual conduct."

"The Texas Anti-sodomy law undeniably seeks to further the belief of its citizens that certain forms of sexual behavior are 'immoral and unacceptable,' like laws against 'fornication, bigamy, adultery, adult incest, bestiality, and obscenity.'"


Read some more and you'll find plenty.

You're mistaking my disapproval of what he says for intolerance. No, he can say it if he wants. But that doesn't mean I have to accept it. In my mind, any line of reasoning which seeks to marginalize or oppress a class of the human race is repugnant and should not be allowed to be spread. If I stay silent over things like Scalia's beliefs, it'll be interpreted as subtle approval. And I do not approve of that line of thought. He's entitled to his opinion, no matter how wrongly reasoned I believe it is. But it's within my rights to say he's wrong and (as the evidence shows) label him a homophobe. Really, who's the intolerant one? Me for decrying Scalia's beliefs, or Scalia by equating homosexuality to bestiality and murder?

Oh, and that oppression of "white people" you cited? Those people weren't oppressed because they were white. They were oppressed because they were Irish, Catholic, Italian, and so on. The color of their skin was not the reason they were oppressed. Their ethnic origin was why. Completely different.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:11:24 PM by Queensryche »

Offline TimJR

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2013, 01:30:57 PM »
The discrimination against immigrants never stopped, actually. "Immigrants taking our jobs/money/women!" has been an irrational fear for a very long time, and isn't even limited to the United States. But it is exactly that - a prejudice against immigrants, not because of the color of their skin (though that prejudice can lead to such behavior and ideas). So you can't really point at the Irish or German immigrants to the US as a case of 'white oppression'. Nor can you point at 'European monarchies' as such, either. Class oppression is very different (and again, something that never went away).

I'm not really jumping in on this circular argument about tolerance/intolerance, but I just wanted to point that out.
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Offline piperspitt

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2013, 05:16:18 PM »
Once again Scalia does not, in any quote, state that he hates homosexuals. He does not equate homosexuality to murder or beastiality, he compares applications of laws of morality. I'm not sure if you don't get the difference or if you are intentionally lying? I hope you can find some happiness in life and let go of your anger. Life is too short to be full of hate or vitriol.
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Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2013, 05:43:32 PM »
I think his intent is pretty clear: he does not approve of homosexuality whatsoever and feels it's immoral and disgusting. I read that and see clear context. I don't think he has to be precise like you think he needs to be to see that he's homophobic.

It's clear now nothing else is going to be gained arguing this further. I'm done. You can carry on if you want to, but I've said all I can, and if you're not convinced, nothing short of the standard you set will convince you.

And I'm plenty happy, thank you very much. Doesn't mean I always have to put on a happy face or can't express indignation at things on occasion.

Offline piperspitt

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2013, 06:13:53 PM »
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink fits perfectly here. I certainly can't stop you from namecalling or lying and I can't make you understand something that you refuse to understand or can't understand so I will be done here as well.
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Queensryche

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2013, 08:20:12 PM »
I'm compelled to say one more thing:

According to Wikipedia: "A lie is a false statement to a person or group made by another person or group who knows it is not the whole truth, intentionally."

Unless your definition is unusually broad, I don't understand at all how you can call me a liar.

Offline Theren

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Re: Change for the better
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 09:09:02 PM »
There is the first obvious mistake in logic, you use wikipedia as a reliable source of information. We are talking about the website that for an extended period of time said that Stephen Colbert invented the elephant. According the Merriam Webster dictionary

lie
noun \ˈlī\
Definition of LIE
1
a :  an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive
b :  an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker
2
:  something that misleads or deceives
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