Author Topic: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game  (Read 2819 times)

Offline Mo B.

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Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« on: June 29, 2011, 07:56:55 AM »
First of all, you all obviously enjoy the Raw Deal project and major respect for continuing a game you all love.

To the makers of Raw Deal and New Raw Deal, have you ever considered applying your talents to a different game? Do you want to eventually branch out from the world of Wrestling and create a prototype to send it out to other gaming companies (FFG, Z-Man, Flying Frog, AEG, etc.). A lot of you have playtesting experience in the world of CCGs, and a lot of your ideas for Raw Deal are interesting to say the least. It'd be interesting to see this group tackle other projects.

BTW, thanks once again for your hard work. You guys are continuing something you love, mad props.

Offline MediumSexy

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 08:00:08 AM »
Stay tuned for my "Smurfs: Ounce for Ounce" gladiatorial type game.

"Get ready to be smurfed in the face!"

(p.s. - I'd totally play this.)
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Offline CreedP

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 08:09:40 AM »
Thought about it but with the dwindling conventional CCG market, its unlikely that a product would sell to make it worth the time & effort to set it up, other than just a casual game, probably put online like Raw Deal.

Even online CCGs aren't doing all that well, other than Magic of course, from what I've been hearing...

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Offline Mo B.

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 08:17:44 AM »
Really what you guys are doing is creating Raw Deal the LCG (Living Card Game). It's a method that Fantasy Flight has begun developing for games like A Game of Thrones, Call of Cuthulu (sp?), and Lord of the Rings. When you buy your pack of cards, you know exactly what you're getting (i.e like the fixed starters in Raw Deal). If you combine the LCG with the popularity of deck drafting games (Dominion, Puzzle Strike, Nightfall, Thunderstone, etc.), I think you can see why the CCG market is dwindling. I can go with the LCG method and save a lot of money for roughly the same experience or I can buy a deck drafting game and draft my deck as I play. Granted, building a deck in a deck drafting game will never compare with building a deck in a CCG.

My apologies if I phrased my question wrong, but it didn't just apply to the world of CCGs, but the larger gaming world in general. Have you ever thought of designing a board game, RPG, or any other type of game outside of CCGs?

Also, I would also probably play a Smurf Gladiatorial style game.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:21:28 AM by Mo B. »

Offline CreedP

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 08:35:09 AM »
Can't answer for the others, but yes, I've thought of it - I just don't think there's enough money in it to make it worthwhile, starting from scratch.  So I just do this for fun, and to help keep the game alive a little longer.  :)

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Offline JDub

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 09:08:07 AM »
Designing Raw Deal cards is totally different that designing a game from the ground up. I mean these guys do great work, but anyone can come up with some Raw Deal cards. Take a look in the Fantasy Card section, heck I've come up with some Raw Deal cards before. Designing a brand new game is fifty times more difficult that designing cards for a game that's already exists.

Again not trying to take anything away from the guys that are designing the Raw Deal cards now (I've even said a few times I wish whoever did the graphics for the cards now (I think it's Creed?) would have done them for the game when it was still around because they are amazing).

Offline Antigoth

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 09:15:06 AM »
Hey there,

    This is actually a great question, and I applaud you asking it. Personally I've done work that has involved an NDA with at least 3 different gaming companies at this point.

    One went into bankruptcy, one was sold by it's parent company, and the third is still one of the leaders in the gaming industry today.

    For me to go into the gaming industry would typically involve the following:

    1) Be required to sell my home (here in Canada) that's fully paid for, and have to move to the home city of the gaming company in question (Which in many cases may not be a fantastic city, but is located strategically for tax purposes).
    2) Be American. Many of the gaming companies due to issues with INS, and the legal hassles of getting a job for a Canadians in the currently job starved US. (There are questions that usually follow from this answer, so I'll get to it in a moment.)
    3) Cutting my salary in half, and working for less then $30k a year.
    4) I've lost my stomach for unpaid overtime where your job is your life, and working 10-12 hours a day, with no down time.

    I respect those who work in the gaming industry. I respect those who have carved a niche for themselves where they can do work that they love, and still live comfortably.
(Very few people have gotten rich from working in the gaming industry)

    At least one person involved in the process of the various Raw Deal virtual products is or was interested in getting games published in the real world. I got him involved in this because of that, to help grow his portfolio, and help add to his experience.

    You may say "Why not start your own gaming company in Canada, and then develop and sell games accordingly?"

     I would then direct you over to one of our local game designers. They have their own games, that they have made, and produced on their own. They are currently working on having more games, so that distributors would actually be willing to distribute their product (The last thing one of them mentioned to me was that they had to have at least 5 skus for the products for distributors to consider their products). The two of them involved with the company still have full time jobs, because while their gaming company is growing, they still can't afford to be completely independent, and draw salaries.

    Another of my friends was a game designer/developer for a CCG that for quite some time was consistently in the top 5 of CCG game sales. When his wife had their first child, he quit his job, and became the stay at home parent, because her work drew a better salary for them to support their family with. (And the salary she was making wasn't all that much better, but it was the only way for their family to make more money)

He had been with that company for about 5 years at that point. (Maybe more, this is off the top of my head.)

    By and large the gaming industry as a job is for the young, and the lucky.  It thrives on volunteers, and those who will do things "for the love of the game."

    That's my abbreviated .02 on the subject, as someone who has traveled North America for the love of games. (One day I will travel the world. My goal is to make it off the continent.)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 09:22:56 AM by Antigoth »

Offline CreedP

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 09:32:45 AM »
Well said, Mr. Goth.  :)  Thank you for the insight, and verifying that my suspicions are generally correct, sadly.

Designing Raw Deal cards is totally different that designing a game from the ground up. I mean these guys do great work, but anyone can come up with some Raw Deal cards. Take a look in the Fantasy Card section, heck I've come up with some Raw Deal cards before. Designing a brand new game is fifty times more difficult that designing cards for a game that's already exists.
This is VERY true, especially for me - I work much better with something that is already there than making something from scratch.

Quote
Again not trying to take anything away from the guys that are designing the Raw Deal cards now (I've even said a few times I wish whoever did the graphics for the cards now (I think it's Creed?) would have done them for the game when it was still around because they are amazing).
Yes, that's me, and thank you for the kind words.  I hope we can sufficiently blow your minds with R6, heh.  ;)

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Offline ravenklath

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2011, 12:41:43 PM »
Creed with what has come since i "rediscovered" TCO after looking through my garage and seeing all my old Raw Deal Cards. I am Very Much looking forward to REV6 and hopefully i too will soon be able to play Raw Deal again even if that means the only way i can is if i make a trip about once a month to hang out with Ric and his club.
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Offline Mo B.

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2011, 01:51:19 PM »
Thank you all for your answers. They were very insightful. I've only met a handful of people able to make it in the business. I went to Trashfest and played some games with Zev, Edward from AEG, and Richard Launius.

Richard worked for Bell South before the AT&T buy-out, but he maintains that he is able to make a solid living off selling games. Granted, the man designed Arkham Horror, which has been a solid seller for several years. He even worked out a deal where if FFG uses any of his characters for any other Lovecraft games, he gets paid. But Richard is easily the largest exception to the rule.

Still, thanks for the responses.

Stay tuned for my "Smurfs: Ounce for Ounce" gladiatorial type game.

"Get ready to be smurfed in the face!"

(p.s. - I'd totally play this.)

Ric, you should check out this session report: http://fortressat.com/articles-gaming-scene/2666-origins-session-report-1-smurf-wars
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:08:07 PM by Mo B. »

Offline Antigoth

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2011, 02:47:22 PM »
Thank you all for your answers. They were very insightful. I've only met a handful of people able to make it in the business. I went to Trashfest and played some games with Zev, Edward from AEG, and Richard Launius.

Richard worked for Bell South before the AT&T buy-out, but he maintains that he is able to make a solid living off selling games. Granted, the man designed Arkham Horror, which has been a solid seller for several years. He even worked out a deal where if FFG uses any of his characters for any other Lovecraft games, he gets paid. But Richard is easily the largest exception to the rule.


Sure, keeping in mind that for the longest while Zev as a favour for Hank and Alan worked part time as the commissioner for Raw Deal helping them deal with tournament organization, and various games and rules issues. I saw Zev this past weekend at Origins, and sadly we were only able to do a quick HI! and exchange handshakes. (Many moons ago I roomed with Zev and Barron at a Gencon SoCal, and enjoy chatting with him.)

Most of the people who work in the gaming industry LOVE games / gaming, etc, they are inspired by it, and want to be there.

When you love a job/industry it makes many things much more bearable. Launius is definitely fortunate. (Just had to go and look at the first edition Arkham Horror from Chaosium sitting over in the corner to veryify that yup... I *should* have recognized the name).

*IF* you can make it in the industry, or if you have someone to bankroll you, then you're set.

Sure, people can name Barron and Mike as the designers of the Raw Deal CCG. Can anyone here name off the top of their head who created the Stargate CCG, or Conan CCG for Comic Images? (No googling! Personally I feel bad, because I've met and talked with the designer of the Conan CCG, and while I can barely remember his face, I certainly can't remember his name).

It's like acting, writing, music, or anything else.

You hear the stories of the people who are successful. Unless you happen to be in the industry, you don't usually hear the stories of the staff whose checks bounced when the company closed, and were paid in product so that they could hope to get some money for something. Or the artist who did the work she was commissioned for, and was then stiffed because the company chose not to pay her for it. (Or anyone else for that matter...)

Even when you're dealing with the bigger companies, it's not all wine and roses. (Preface - I love Fantasy Flight Games, and think that they know to run a successful business, and was just purchasing Fantasy Flight product this past weekend at Origins) When Sabertooth Games as sold off from Games Workshop to FFG, only 3 of a staff of roughly two dozen were retained. Within 8 months of the transfer, only one of those 3 staff were still with FFG. (Both individuals left of their own accord to go and do other work. The third individual is still with FFG today.)

Anyhow... enough of procrastinating on mowing the lawn.


Offline frehocc

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2011, 04:59:43 AM »


    That's my abbreviated .02 on the subject, as someone who has traveled North America for the love of games. (One day I will travel the world. My goal is to make it off the continent.)

Singapore is waiting for you. Raw deal is still alive here
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Offline Antigoth

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2011, 09:07:39 AM »
For those of you interested in a career in game design:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/News/employment/lcg-designer.pdf

Here is the link to other FFG July job posting:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=2469

Offline CreedP

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2011, 09:17:23 AM »
Probably a great opportunity for someone with interest, but the whole 'move to Minnesota' is a dealbreaker for me, personally. lol  I've already got my heart set on returning to California...

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Offline Gamer of 1000 Names

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Re: Raw Deal and Creating a New Game
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2011, 10:56:28 AM »
As much as Id love making a card game of my own or post up some of my notes, I dont have nearly the talent to do it well :(
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