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Messages - dilbert505

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Yeah, most of the "worst" decks are on that list not because they're bad, but because they're either boring, or someone else does what they do more efficiently. Frex, Heidenreich and Michael Tarver's entire gimmick is "I punch you." That's boring as hell, especially since the only punch that's really a top tier maneuver is Punch After Punch, which, let's face it, can be better used by anyone who makes a good volley build. Lex Luger? Sure, he throws Dynamics, but a ton of people can throw Dynamics, and can do it better. Junkyard Dog can throw Dynamic Grapples at at least -10F, between his ability and Dynamically Inclined, and his Dynamics are Chain with an additional card discard. Billy Gunn can make Luck of the Draw Permanent, and sponge like a mofo by constantly revealing the Dynamics he picks up with Striker to put cards back, and even DTTAH doesn't slow him down much. Dangerous Alliance? OK, they're probably just bad.

On the flip side, you can make an amazing deck with just about anyone, if you have the right inspiration. If you look at what people brought just to Worlds last year, 13 people showed, and there was only one duplicated superstar in VC (Kevin Owens). The top 4 in VC were Nidia, Chyna Doll, Big Poppa Pump, and Bret Hart, and before Worlds, I don't think anyone would have pegged any of those four decks as top tier, yet there they were in the top cut at Worlds.

Really, the best advice I have is to either pick a superstar you like, and build the best deck you can for them, or decide on a strategy you like, and pick the best superstar you have to match it. Do one of those two, and it will give you the best results.

Rules Forum / Re: Need help on a timing issue
« on: April 14, 2018, 09:23:58 PM »
I can solve your timing issue in one: You don't have the Most Recent Printing of Managed by Paul Heyman.

The card was reprinted in Survivor Series 3, with the following wording (modifications in bold)

Managed by Paul Heyman
Pre-match Manager: Heel
When this card is in your Ring area, during your turn you may discard 1 card and put this card into your Ringside Pile, and then put 1 non-Backlash-deck card in your opponent's Ring area into his Ringside pile.
Universally Unique
F: 0      D: 0

Managed by Paul Heyman cannot be triggered before the end of your opponent's turn. The card, damage and all, must fully resolve before the turn can end, so there is no way to trigger it before damage.

As a general rule, any ACE that uses the old template "as a Mid-Match Action" can only be activated on your turn.

General Chat / Re: Specific question about a card
« on: April 10, 2018, 07:03:14 PM »
Your best bet on here is to direct your questions to the Rules Forum:,4.0.html - there are some documents there that may help with some of the more common questions, and most people are happy to answer anything more complex as it comes along. The head rules guy, Daeva, and head designer, Creed, also poke their heads in regularly, and can help sort out the thornier stuff.

As Mitch mentioned, Lackey and Discord are also quite useful. Welcome!

Rules Forum / Re: Heidenreich Question
« on: April 10, 2018, 06:25:20 AM »
Yeah, in order to pack Kidney Punch with BASH cards, it would have to say "When packing this card, your Kidney Punch cards are considered Superstar-specific..."

Rules Forum / Re: Reversing an ACE effecf thats from backstage.
« on: April 08, 2018, 11:53:32 PM »
1) Effects on Backstage cards are not reversible.

2) Both Hellraisers 'til the End and The Roman Empire have effects on them that move them to the Ring. When they are in the Ring, the effect labeled "ACE" is an Activated Card Effect, and can be reversed. When they are not in the Ring, the effect labeled "ACE" is not an Activated Card Effect, because as Creed pointed out, the definition of an ACE includes that card being in the Ring.

Let's walk through the Roman Empire.

Your Superstar Value and Starting Hand Size are +2.

 - This part is self-evident. It's a static effect throughout the game.

You may put this card into your Ring to reverse any non-Unique non-maneuver card and Promo: 3.

 - This effect moves Roman Empire to your Ring. At that point, it is no longer in the Backstage Area.

 - Your opponent can do nothing to stop this effect, other than not playing non-Unique non-maneuver cards.

ACE: When playing a non-Unique Multi maneuver, you may put this card from your Ring into your Ringside and your maneuver requires 3 reversals instead of 2 to reverse; when you have 10+ lower Fortitude, this effect cannot be reversed.

 - This effect is the only ACE on the card. It is also ONLY usable after the second effect has been triggered, as the cost of the ACE specifically requires moving the card from your Ring to your Ringside. It can't be moved from your Ring unless it is already there.

 - There is reversibility text on the card because once it is in the Ring, the effect is an ACE, and can be reversed as normal, unless you have 10+ lower Fortitude.


As for Hellraisers 'til the End, that card can be placed either in your Backstage or your Ring. The card specifically states that the effect labeled ACE can be used when the card is in your Backstage, this time, which is different from Roman Empire. However, when it is in your Backstage, it is not an ACE, again, because it must be in your Ring to be an ACE. In your Backstage, it is simply an effect you may choose to use.

General Discussion: Raw Deal / Re: Andre's Giant Headbutt question
« on: April 07, 2018, 10:06:57 PM »
There are two answers here, and it's contingent upon whether or not you have a certain other card in play.

As worded, a single Get the F Out will suffice to completely reverse Giant Head Butt. The text requiring 3 reversals instead of two only interacts with normal reversals; "completely" overrides that text.

However, if you are playing with Virtual cards, Andre has another card, released in Virtual 4, that impacts this situation.

Giant Eiffel Tower
Pre-match Event
When you hide We Face Each Other As God Intended, your opponent may remove this card from the game.
Ignore the word "completely" on all players' reversals and card effects.
Your maneuvers are +2D.
ACE: During your turn, you may put this card into your Ringside and then shuffle 8 cards from your Ringside into your Arsenal.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     WWF Classic logo

The text I bolded in that card reverses the situation. It essentially changes the wording of any card that includes the word completely, so that Get the F Out functionally reads like this:

Get the "F" Out!
Reversal: Special
Reverse any non-Trademark-Finisher Unique Maneuver card OR completely reverse any Multi card and end your opponent's turn.
F: 4      D: 0

With that text removed, Get the F Out will serve as one reversal to Giant Head Butt, rather than fulfilling the reversal condition entirely. (The same holds true for any reversal that does not have the Restricted Modification Symbol, like Once Is Enough.)

Rules Forum / Re: Legacy vs Braun
« on: April 03, 2018, 11:02:33 AM »
No, you may only choose an applicable reversal with a Fort cost you can pay for. The "top 3 cards" is from a separate clause; the antecedent that "1" refers to is "any applicable reversal[] with Fortitude equal to or less than your Fortitude Rating," which is part of the same clause.

It might be easier to read like this:

When your opponent successfully plays a non-Trademark Finisher non-Trademark maneuver, before damage is applied, reveal the top 3 cards of your Arsenal. If you reveal any applicable reversals with Fortitude equal to or less than your Fortitude Rating, you may choose 1 applicable reversal to remove from the game, shuffle the other cards into your Arsenal, do not take damage from that maneuver and end his turn.
When you do not choose a card, shuffle those cards into your Arsenal and take damage as normal.

Fantasy Cards / Re: Kassius Ohno
« on: March 26, 2018, 10:53:50 AM »
Another suggestion; as worded, Knockout Artist would make Whirlwind Kick a TMF+Assault Multi. (Unless I'm mistaken, and "instead" replaces the entire type line; either way, it's still a Multi TMF.) You should probably also make that "non-Multi, non-Unique," unless you want to just forbid him from packing Unique and Multi maneuvers as well.

he can't pack whirlwind kick:

1. he's fat and nasty looking and that visual makes me ill
2. it does have "reversed" in the text ;)

Feel free to find a different example; I don't have Lackey at work. Point stands (or rather, it did until Drywall edited the card.)

Fantasy Cards / Re: Kassius Ohno
« on: March 26, 2018, 09:00:31 AM »
Another suggestion; as worded, Knockout Artist would make Whirlwind Kick a TMF+Assault Multi. (Unless I'm mistaken, and "instead" replaces the entire type line; either way, it's still a Multi TMF.) You should probably also make that "non-Multi, non-Unique," unless you want to just forbid him from packing Unique and Multi maneuvers as well.

Fantasy Cards / Re: Kassius Ohno
« on: March 26, 2018, 08:48:09 AM »
Alternately, make it a maneuver without "reversed" in the text. (That still allows protection from other cards like Drawing a Blank, but shuts off Poke and similar BS.)

Edit: Ninja'd. Good change, Drywall.

General Discussion: Raw Deal / Re: Mixed match
« on: March 22, 2018, 07:09:57 AM »
Scotty's got a point. Given the backlog of relevant superstars yet to be made, and the likely debut of several more following Wrestlemania, there's no way one-off teams like the mixed-match challenge collection are going to happen outside of fantasy cards. Which, by the way, knock yourself out, but I wouldn't expect a Braun/Bliss card before Alexa herself is even in the game.

Professional Wrestling Discussion / Re: YES! YES! YES!
« on: March 20, 2018, 03:45:49 PM »
it's a shame they moved the Miz to Raw, he's the PERFECT opponent (not only in storyline, but Miz's style would be VERY safe for D-Bry too).....i just hope this doesn't lead to D-Bry vs Stunt show McMahon .....I'm done with Shane at this point.....

I hope this is more than just "clear him so he stays in WWE"

Oh, don't worry about D-Bry vs. Shane. They're so much more likely to give you Bryan and Shane vs. KO and Zayn.  ;D

Honestly, given my druthers, I'd put D-Bry in a match where name value carries enough weight that nobody feels like they need to kill themselves for people to get their money's worth. Have a battle of the part-timers: Cena vs. Taker vs. Bryan. That way, you basically give Taker and Bryan half a match each against Cena, Bryan gets eased back into competition, and Taker gets a few rest spots so he doesn't completely grind himself into dust. I'm sure that's not what they'll do, but it's what I'd do with them.

Professional Wrestling Discussion / Re: YES! YES! YES!
« on: March 20, 2018, 01:53:38 PM »
Anyone who authorizes any wrestler in WWE to do that move should be fired, blacklisted, and beaten behind the arena.

Seeing the effects on Benoit, Marella, Bryan, and others.. it's just a @#$*& stupid move to be using.


And anyone who does one without authorization should spend a full program jobbing to Señor Benjamin in squash matches. People, you have elbows for a reason.

Lackey Tournaments / Re: TCO Lackey Tournament #12!
« on: March 16, 2018, 08:32:20 AM »
I'll suggest Edge and Christian, and Dudleyz.

I can MAYBE see Dudleyz (but come on the virtual support is awesome) but E&C? No way Jose.

I can't countenance the addition of anyone who, with a careful setup, gets to throw an unrespondable Kitchen Sink on turn 1 to this list.

Rules Forum / Re: Faith ACE
« on: March 15, 2018, 02:15:21 PM »
Not to dredge this back up, but I'm still slightly unclear on one point, and I want to wrap my head around it. If my opponent plays a Grapple that can be reversed from Backlash, but it's his first maneuver of the turn/he has less fortitude, does Backlash! still count as an applicable reversal? I have the Fortitude to play it (which is relevant for Faith, if not for applicability in general), it's coming from a valid zone, it would reverse a Grapple under optimal conditions, but I fail to meet the can only be played requirement printed on the reversal.

Basically, does applicable ignore can only be played text on the reversal?

Lackey Tournaments / Re: TCO Lackey Tournament #12!
« on: March 15, 2018, 11:48:38 AM »
I was kind of iffy on adding Billy and Chuck to my list anyway, and we've discussed Mae, but I don't entirely know why Pimpin's objecting to the rest of the names on his list. As far as I can tell, none of them are strong builds, they don't see much high level play, and there are people who do what they do better. They all feel like exactly the kind of deck that belongs in this type of tournament. I'm open to hearing arguments about why they're too good, though.

Lackey Tournaments / Re: TCO Lackey Tournament #12!
« on: March 15, 2018, 11:27:35 AM »
yeah it was either Mae or Moolah I commented on in testing "they're good enough for friendly games now, but if you play them against your friends you won't have any friends anymore"  :laugh: :laugh:

I still don't get it.

Mae Young
Starting Hand Size: 0     Superstar Value: 0
Superstar Ability: You cannot play maneuvers of 3D or greater. Your Arsenal may only contain 45 cards. Your cards titled Puppies! Puppies! are Set-up cards, -10F, and read as "Shuffle up to 5 cards from your Ringside pile into your Arsenal, draw 2 cards, your opponent overturns 2 cards, and end your turn."

She's a Diva-saurus!
Backstage Card
When packing this card, you can pack cards as if you are a Diva, but you are not a Diva.
Your You're as Graceful as a Cow on Ice cards are not Active and can be played as if you have fewer cards in hand; and your opponent cannot prevent you from playing Puppies! Puppies!.
During your turn, you may hide this card and then search your Arsenal and Ringside for The Older the Berry..., reveal it, put it in your hand, and shuffle.
Unique     RMS logo

Wrestling Over 9 Decades
Backstage Card
When packing this card, you can pack up to 9 Puppies! Puppies! cards in your Backstage Area; after all Pre-match have been resolved, shuffle those cards into your Arsenal and draw # cards (where # is equal to 9 minus the number of cards in your hand).
When you have 5+ lower Fortitude, your opponent must discard 2 cards in order to reverse your Puppies! Puppies! from hand or Backlash; when you have 10+ lower Fortitude, cards with that title are Multi.
Unique     RMS logo

Give Yourself a Hand!
Mid-match Action + Action
Cannot be reversed and cannot be blanked.
Your opponent overturns cards equal to double the number of Puppies! Puppies! in your Ring, then shuffle all your Puppies! Puppies! cards in your Ring and Ringside into your Arsenal and draw up to 2 cards.
ACE:  During your turn when this card is in your Ring or Ringside, you may remove 2 Puppies! Puppies! cards in your Ring and/or Ringside from the game, then put this card in your Backlash.  This effect cannot be reversed.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Multi

Mae Young's Slap
Trademark Finisher
Can only be reversed by Step Aside.
When you successfully play Puppies! Puppies! and this card is in your Ring or Ringside, or removed from the game, you may put it into your hand.
F: 0     D: 3     SV: 2     Unique

Basically, you have a countably infinite number of Chain Multi actions that shuffle back, burn your opponent, replace themselves in your hand, and gives you an infinitely recurring TMF that can be reversed by, IIRC, exactly 3 cards in the game (Step, Excellence of Execution, Great Deal of Confusion TB). Mae is nigh impossible to finish off, and you will be playing for just this side of 9 decades to do it if you do.

Lackey Tournaments / Re: TCO Lackey Tournament #12!
« on: March 15, 2018, 09:36:04 AM »
It depends on the number of entrants I would think, but I do like 2-3 per person

I'd add Roddy Piper to the list...he's garbage now that he's tied horribly to b2b

Dilbert's list is good minus Eugene and Masters

Alas, you didn't react as violently to Eugene being there as I had hoped. Yeah, that one was a joke.

Lackey Tournaments / Re: TCO Lackey Tournament #12!
« on: March 15, 2018, 09:30:05 AM »
Let me see if I can make it worse; I have some names I never see played that don't seem like they fit in the "too broken to build" category. I also wouldn't mind seeing the list larger, rather than shorter, so we have a secondary pool for if we want to run this type of tourney a second time, but feel free to go either way there.

Johnny Nitro
Chris Masters
Billy & Chuck
Lex Luger
Michael Tarver
The Godfather
Nikolai Volkoff
The Rockers

Eugene's in the list to see if I can make CRASHER explode. That's not a legitimate suggestion.

Lackey Tournaments / Re: TCO Lackey Tournament #12!
« on: March 12, 2018, 12:29:54 PM »
My preference would be Franken-Lackey, since let's be honest, I can already build a bad deck. I don't need to be assigned a bad superstar to do it with.  :-\

That said, maybe Tourney 13 can be one of the two formats, and Tourney 14 the other?

Rules Forum / Re: Faith ACE
« on: March 02, 2018, 10:28:55 AM »
Piggybacking off of Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiick's edit, would it be possible to get a definition of applicable added to the VFAQ? I notice that there isn't one there, or in the Omni, and while a definition can be pieced together from other rulings that reference the word, it'd be great to have one definitive source to refer back to.

Rules Forum / KMA Club vs. New Nexus
« on: February 28, 2018, 06:09:35 PM »
Vince McMahon’s "Kiss My A$%" Club     (Vince McMahon logo)
Pre-match Event
This card cannot be blanked.
Your opponent’s Managed by Eric Bischoff is blank.
At the end of the Pre-match phase, he may randomly discard 2 cards; if he does, draw up to 2 cards or put 1 card from your Ringside into your hand. If he does not, before each of your Draw Segments, he overturns 1 card.
Your Zero Tolerance: Kiss My Magnificent A%$ cards cannot be reversed by Elbow to the Face.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique

Initiation into New Nexus
Backstage Card
Cannot be packed when packing I'm Gonna Break You.
Remove any number of Backlash cards from the game.  If you removed at least 3 cards from the game, you may increase your Starting Hand Size by +4.  If you removed at least 6 cards, you start the game. If you removed at least 9 cards, his effects that would make you discard cards are reduced to 1. If you removed at least 12 cards, he cannot respond to your first printed F:0 D:6- maneuver played of the game, and after its damage is applied, end your turn.
Unique     RMS logo

Bolding the relevant parts of the cards.

So, in a game last night, I ran into this situation. I was New Nexus, had removed 12 to Initiation, and he had out KMA Club. I wanted to randomly discard cards to avoid the burn, but Initiation reduces his effects that would make me discard to 1.

I saw two possible ways this could play out, and was unsure which was the intended result.

1) Initiation reduces the random discard of 2 on KMA Club to a random discard of 1, satisfying the cost and allowing me to avoid the burn.
2) KMA Club requires a discard of 2, but Initiation mandates a maximum discard of 1. Since 2 cards cannot be discarded, I cannot complete the effect, and have to burn every turn.

To get through the match, my opponent and I agreed that we would play as though the first option is correct, but I'd like to be sure we interpreted the ruling correctly in case I run into something similar in the future.

Rules Forum / Re: Question on Fortitude Surge effect
« on: February 28, 2018, 09:22:47 AM »
Playing Fortitude Surge and then immediately triggering the ACE is fine.

Playing Fortitude Surge and then playing another card in response to the same card is not, for the same reason why you can't play two Elbow to the Face cards to a Headlock Takedown. Whether you use the ACE on Fortitude Surge to play the other card or not is inconsequential.

Okay. So if my opponent plays Bionic Elbow, I can play Fort Surge (even when my F:0) which then I put it from my Ring Area to Ringside Pile to activate the effect. By doing so I cannot play anymore reversals from my hand/backlash deck and I can only reverse it from the Arsenal?

Am I right?

The parenthetical reference is incorrect; the remainder of your analysis is. Bionic Elbow's +10F applies to any red card played against it, and applies before Fort Surge can be attempted; you would need to have 10F to play the Surge itself.

Presuming you did have the 10F, you could then play the Fortitude Surge. This locks you out of playing another reversal card from hand, backlash, or Ringside to the Bionic Elbow, and the Elbow is successfully played.

If you choose to pop Fort Surge at that point, your reversals from Arsenal would be protected from the plunge.

If you choose not to pop Fort Surge, your reversals from Arsenal would be +10F.

Deck Reviews - Virtual / Re: Must pack for prematch
« on: February 23, 2018, 09:20:01 AM »
I can't say that I have generic must-pack prematch cards. My general plan is to figure out what I want the deck to do, then pick what guides me in that direction. I will say that if I have a superstar who runs a lot of specific prematch cards, I try to find some way to pack the TB Undisputed Title to make them all free. Along those lines, if I'm looking to fill slots with generically useful things, I may put in the NWO package, since NWO cards all become free, or if I have a Legend or Classic WWF superstar, I'll pack SNME and some Classic WWF logo cards like Mean Gene.

Other cards I commonly pack when I have a slot:

A No Show
Frankie Takes Ho-llywood (which is generally what I swap in for No Show)
My Game, My Way
Tech in a Bottle
Handicap Match TB
Managed by Vince McMahon OR One of the Big Boys (since you can't pack Big Boys and McMahon cards together)
Banned from Ringside
Raw IC Title or IC Title TB + Champ is Here
Through All of These Years

Basically, my most "generic" packs are ways to get up to 12 prematch played, which is a large part of the reason why Flanked doesn't appear on my list (unless I have a lot of ways to keep my cards from taking a slot.) Flanked is good if you're prepared to not use your maximum number of slots, but my tendency is to drop 12 if I can find a way to do it.

Rules Forum / Re: Justin Gabriel Question
« on: February 21, 2018, 01:47:50 PM »
As I understand it, yes. Once the maneuver is successful, you may declare Bad Touch, overturn 2 cards, the damage will be reduced to 0, the card will resolve, and since the card was successful and the 0 damage has been applied, you may discard to the Chain trait.

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