Team Canada Online

Raw Deal => Virtual Raw Deal => Topic started by: CreedP on May 30, 2020, 09:55:15 AM

Title: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on May 30, 2020, 09:55:15 AM
Hi guys!

Since I've had Raw Deal on the brain lately, I thought it might be fun to review some of the cards and ideas that didn't make it into the game.  Back in the Comic Images days, this could happen because the Superstar was no longer with the company, or because WWE didn't approve the card title / concept / picture / whatever.  But in Virtual there were usually other reasons entirely for deciding not to use some of the concepts.

As the title seems especially timely, I'll start with this one:

We All Wear Masks...
Pre-match Event
Cannot be packed by Eugene, JBL, Raw Guest Host, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Tag Teams or Stables.  Cannot be blanked.
When packing this card, your Frankie Takes Ho-llywood is Unique; when this card is in your Ring, that card does not take up a Pre-match slot in your Ring and it is Permanent.
Before each of your Draw Segments, put up to 3 cards under this card into your Backlash.
ACE: During your turn, name a Raw Deal Superstar, and then put 4 random cards from your Backlash under this card and you count as the named superstar instead until the start of your next turn.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Permanent

The idea started easy enough, what if those little perks on cards could be added by just spoofing the name of your Superstar? Even without gaining any traits, just the name, several ideas came to mind. One use would be changing your name to get those Movie card 'cannot be reversed' perks. Another might be naming your Superstar Mae Young for discounts on Sloppy...Very Sloppy. There's also a number of Superstars with remakes or tag teams where certain perks aren't available, but could be if they snuck in with a fake nametag.

Design-wise, the idea was a hefty cost that could be recouped but not easily, so this effect couldn't be used every turn. I don't recall why the Frankie idea was co-opted in, whether that's a concept with adding to a future card is out of my hands now, heh.

To be clear, this card didn't even see much playtesting, as multiple issues sprang up immediately. For one, several Superstars could evade the critical Shenanigans debuffs by using the Raw Deal equivalent of 'fake mustache and glasses' - Hello, My Name is NOT Eugene, please eat copious amounts of reversal damage, haha. (I don't recall why Raw Guest Host was on the list, but it made sense at the time)

Often the reality of 'fun idea' just doesn't work in game as expansive as Raw Deal, but it's an amusing thought. Perhaps this concept could be used as a Superstar-specific idea, locked down with the necessary restrictions on the Superstar Card, but it has a high potential for abuse, and is unlikely to be worth the trouble of extensive playtesting necessary.

For what it's worth, though, here's the card image:


Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: MonkeyLord13 on May 30, 2020, 10:57:55 AM
I really like the concept, but see the potential problems. Might be fun as a concept for Damien Sandow support as another way to represent that period where he was coming out with a new gimmick/impression every week.

Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: BigPimpin on May 30, 2020, 08:07:22 PM
Good Lord, I never thought I'd see that image again. 

I can fill in a couple of the blanks here:

1) Raw Guest Host was on there because All Axxess was the dominant format at the time, and allowing RGH to have Masks would allow him to be whoever the cornered cards he was packing wanted him to be.  I forget the specific example at the time, but if you look at all the available "Revolution X Is In My Corner" cards and the specific moves they'd allow RGH access to, it was deemed to be too much since the benefits were designed for someone else. 

2) Frankie made it on there because at the time, we all felt that of the "prize" cards that came from the previous Raw Deal universe, Frankie's needed the most help (yeah, don't laugh too hard...) if you counted Can U Believe The Witte Retort as a TB for My New Gimmick.  Yes, it allegedly didn't turn out how Frankie had desired it (the rumor at the time of creation is that it was supposed to be a stopper for Turn 1 plunge decks like Evolution, but the Comic Images design committee left the Permanent trait off of the card), but I think it's aged really well in an era where RMS on reversals can be a good thing to have.  The original perk had a small list of usually masked superstars (IIRC Rey Jr, Sting, and Sin Cara) that could draw one card at the end of the Pre-match phase, which was, shall we say, less than helpful.

I do hope that the effect can be used if we could find the right superstar(s) to use it for - really the Shenanigans-nerf dodging was the critical nail in the coffin for this particular card, so if a single superstar gets it, they won't have to worry about the name-based Shenanigans nerfs at all.
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on June 06, 2020, 11:30:25 AM
Here's another one picked from the dust on the cutting room floor, from the Virtual 5 era:

Last Man Standing Match
Pre-match Stipulation
Can only be played when there is a Feud in any Ring.
No player may search his Arsenal with non-Unique cards or win the game via Count Out.
When a player is about to lose the game via Pinfall, he randomly reveals 10 cards in his Ringside; when one or more of the revealed cards is a reversal, he removes all revealed reversals from the game and shuffles the remaining revealed cards into his Arsenal, and the game continues.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Permanent     RMS logo

It's a fun idea in theory, no 'cheap' wins by Count Out (so to speak), and a way to implement the 10-count concept. To clarify, once you're pinned, this is how it works:

* Grab 10 cards from your Ringside  (if you want to be thematic, reveal them one at a time, heh)
* If none of them are reversals, you didn't answer the count, you lose the game.
* If you do have some reversals, take any red cards out of the 10 you grabbed, remove them from the game, and keep playing.

There's various issues with this, though, mostly in how accessible RFG'ed cards are. In some cases, adding to the RFG stack might actually help rather than being a punishment!  We discussed alternate placement of the cards, perhaps in the Backstage (again, possibly a boon to a few Superstars) or under Last Man Standing itself.

But the other issue Daeva identified was time. Rather than just play a match to completion, you would now have to beat your opponent repeatedly, and during time-limit games this seemed more likely to invoke a draw than to have a winner.  Sure, in untimed matches this is less of an issue, though Last Man Standing would continue to draw out the games longer without necessarily adding to the gameplay experience.

Could this concept still be used?  Perhaps, though it is loaded with other potential issues as written.  Still, it's an amusing idea to review and discuss.

Here's the card image I came up with:


Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: Scotty on June 06, 2020, 03:24:43 PM
For the sole reason of game length, I am so happy this never saw the light of day!
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: The Hurricane on June 06, 2020, 06:19:29 PM
For the sole reason of game length, I am so happy this never saw the light of day!

No kidding. Games can already drag out as is! lol
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on June 19, 2020, 10:35:23 PM
I was out of town last weekend, we were scouting some potential new homes near the coast, fingers crossed it leads to the move we've waited seven years for.... but ANYway, here's another visit to honor those fallen cards that just didn't make it over the finish line.

This week, it's an idea I'd had during SNME amidst a flurry of nostalgic creations from yesteryear.

THE 1-2-3 KID
Starting Hand Size: 12     Superstar Value: 3
WWF Superstar Ability: Do not draw cards during your Draw Segment. During any player's turn, your Superstar Value is always 0, regardless of other effects.
When you would reveal your hand or your opponent would look at your hand, that effect is canceled; any number of cards that would be chosen by your opponent are chosen randomly.
You may pack High-Flying Style and non-nWo non-Backstage X-Pac cards with only 1 logo.
RMS logo

The general idea was to start with a big hand, but have another way to get cards besides drawing. To make it a 'pre-make' like HBK TB, you would use just the maneuvers and reversals mainly (and Pac's Back) that weren't affiliated with DX or nWo. Since pictures were limited, it would be a promo Superstar with a couple of cards for support. HS/SV are the obvious choices, but Kid didn't feel like a 3SV, so he'd become a 0 instead (great for FLAU etc).

And yes, the 'you can't see my hand' effect was later used for Molly Holly's solo Superstar card.

The Kid's Lightning Speed
Pre-match Event
Cannot be blanked.
At the end of the Pre-match phase, put the top 2 cards from your Arsenal into your Ring face-down.
During your Draw Segment, put the top card of your Arsenal into your Ring face-down, and your opponent randomly chooses 1 face-down card. You may reveal and play the chosen card, and when it is an action, it is -1F; when it is a maneuver, it is +2D and -3F.  When you do not reveal the card, discard 1 card and put the chosen card into your hand.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Permanent     WWF logo

A three-card monte of sorts would follow, where 1 card from Arsenal joins the 2 cards face-down, and of the 3 cards, one is either played at a discount, or traded for a card in hand. (1-2-3! haha, yeah you got it already, never mind...)

The Kid's Moonsault
Trademark Finisher / Action
As a maneuver, can be played from Ringside.  Can only be played after a successfully played maneuver or From the Top Rope.
As an action, put this card, up to 1 card removed from the game, and up to 2 cards from your Ringside on the bottom of your Arsenal; draw 3 cards.
When this card is unsuccessfully played, draw up to 1 card.
F: 25     D: 20     SV: 3     Unique     WWF logo

More 1-2-3 goodness. These weren't anywhere near enough to have a good Superstar, but well before more development came into play, the realization hit that we had a ton of Superstars already, and not enough people cared about the Kid to bother.

Could it be done now? Well, yeah, but not everything that can be done, should be done. :)  There's already a glut of Superstars that don't have a good path for support, limited pictures and low depth of character make it tough to creatively add more to their sets if/when they prove to be too weak to bother with. Nikolai Volkoff says hello.

I was fairly proud of the logo, though, rather than a trace job, I worked this one out on my own to resemble a logo seen on another picture. What a waste, heh.


Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: maskedllama on June 21, 2020, 08:26:10 AM
Dude!! What a cool thread. I can't believe I missed it before!!! 
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on June 21, 2020, 09:27:59 AM
Thanks, I'll try to update it each weekend, at least until I run out of stuff to write about, heh.

Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: maskedllama on June 27, 2020, 08:41:19 AM
Good luck with the move!!!  The 1-2-3 Kid idea sounds really interesting.  Seems a bit convoluted and not sure I would have built him, personally, since I already have a Sean Waltman deck, but its a neat idea. 
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on June 27, 2020, 11:05:42 AM
(Partial cross-post from Discord, in case this looks familiar, heh)

Back in 2006, before the World Championships, I shared an idea with Mike Foley and Barron. I liked how Warlord CCG had a tiered prize system. Basically, certain tournament campaigns offered a shot at a stronger opponent, more powerful than the normal Warlords (think Superstars in RD), called an Overlord. Win the challenge and you get the card, which is neat - they were hard to play normally but not impossible, like a 70F card. BUT you could also use that Overlord card as a ticket to challenge for a Dragonlord (which they'd sign to show it was used), a second tier opponent who could usually produce powerful dragons once a turn.

Anyway, I thought it'd be fun to have an overpowered Superstar that people could play against, and we would only give out a copy to a player who beat the deck.  Mike liked the idea and made up the graphics for it, a Superstar that used other Superstar card interchangeably like Enforcers (HBK, Game, Chyna, etc).

So here's what we came up with:

DX     (Challenge)
Starting Hand Size: 2     Superstar Value: X+2
Tag Team Superstar Ability: X = Your opponent's Superstar Value.
Reveal the Shawn Michaels Superstar card and hide The Game, Chyna, Road Dogg, X-Pac, and Billy Gunn Superstar cards in your Backstage area.  When any of these cards are revealed their Superstar Ability is added to your Superstar Ability.
You may pack up to 24 cards with any of those logos of the above listed Superstars along with Triple H, but you do not count as those Superstars.
Whenever you play the card titled S*CK IT!, hide the revealed Superstar card in your Backstage area and reveal a different one.
Your opponent may not win via a card effect.

Originally, the DX design had a 7 Hand Size and 11 Superstar Value, but Mike felt this was more 'balanced'. For the purposes of the challenge, HBK's additional Arsenal and Backlash space were ruled to exist while packing, that's why he was revealed first.

Also, no cheap tricks, you had to beat these guys straight up.  :)

Awesome Pyro! – Throwback
Backstage Card
Your opponent's Pre-match cards with the words "blank," "switch," or "look at his hand" or any other degenerate wording of such monkeyshines in the text are considered blank.

The idea here was to block I'm Gonna Break You, FLAU TB, and Switcheroo, but Mike added in the 'monkeyshines' with could be expanded for anything we wanted (like Kill Da Beat, what was commonly used in these challenges) but wasn't actually needed, haha.

Creed the Roadie Wannabe     (+Victoria, Fabulous Moolah, Mae Young, Elijah Jones logos)
Backstage Card
Your Starting Hand Size is +3 if you give your opponent 3 Raw Deal cards from your collection to keep, or if you provide him with a bottled water at the beginning of the match.

This was an amusing throw in, since Elijah - my former Con traveling buddy - won GenCon 2005's big qualifier with Victoria. For those who didn't meet me at a convention, I normally carried a hefty bag with tons of decks and spare cards, and I always have a water bottle with me - thus the text. (Note: these are all marked as 'FAKE' and not legal for play, haha)

S*CK IT! - Throwback
Action: Set-up
When played, choose one: every player must discard his entire hand; or every player must place all cards in his Ring area into his Ringside pile.
If the cards titled I've Got Two Words For Ya! and S*CK IT! Are in your Ring area you win via Count Out victory.
F: 2     D: 0

Not Unique, there were actually 5 copies, each with a member's picture. I don't believe the win condition was ever used, though. Much like Two Words, though, this card doesn't age well in Virtual - discard your hand to make your opponent discard half his hand?  Probably Only if you have a shot at the win condition.

Someone beat Mike once, so he gave them a set, I remain undefeated though, haha. I ran it a couple times at Cons, often using Outsider Distraction with The Best Surprises to make it Permanent. People usually tried to win with Kill Da Beat to limit Pre-match, but that level of Superstar power was too much (especially with 2 sets of Trademarks once Revolution 3 came out).

So - could this be used?  It actually has been! This is were the Spirit Squad concept came from, but clearly with more toned-down support designed for this purpose.

Also, since DX reformed that summer and Chris Masters was ixnayed as a Superstar, I asked that we make a DX promo card instead, since we likely had a limited window to do so. It was a great surprise at GenCon that year, though in retrospect, we should have had some limitation or downside, since HHH/HBK were far less appealing when you could pack both sets of cards in DX... oh well.

Anyway, while it was never a legal card, here's the image from the Cutting Room Floor:


Whoops, didn't notice the line on the Cancelled stamp until posting, oh well...
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: Daeva on June 28, 2020, 04:36:58 PM
As it turns out, the one loss that DX had was from one of my local guys, running the A-Train deck that I played and went 3-1 with in Worlds the next day.
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: Greatjawa on July 02, 2020, 01:52:43 PM
I still have a full set of the DX cards that I was sent when I was a manager.  Was fun to play that at League night.
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on July 04, 2020, 10:01:41 AM
Unfortunately, sometimes being cancelled has little to do with the design process, and has everything to do with the subject matter. Today's trip to the Cutting Room Floor involves two former WWE wrestlers who, for different reasons, are persona non grata with the company. (Let's focus on the card design here, rather than a discussion of the incidents in question, thanks)

I believe it was TimJR who had the initial design idea, along with some contributions from BigPimpin, which were pulled together for this tag team design that would give a very different play style, for two very different individuals:

Starting Hand Size: 5     Superstar Value: 0
NXT Tag Team Superstar Ability: When you completely reverse a maneuver to end your opponent's turn, you may discard 1 card, flip a card face-up, and Promo: 2.
You can pack No Sell Maneuver, and you can pack Superstar-specific non-Faction Backlash cards in your Backstage.  You cannot pack any title belts except the Tag Team Title Belts, and you cannot pack Corners.

These two were always talking, thus the regular Promo effect. They would load up their specifics outside of the Backlash pack limit and drop them in later, with this:

You Can't...Teach...That!
Backstage Card
Reveal all Backlash cards in your Backstage Area and put them into your Backlash. Your Superstar-specific Backlash cards cannot be blanked and do not take up Pre-match or Mid-match slots in your Ring.
Your opponent cannot prevent you from playing your Superstar-specific Backlash cards or, until the first turn of the game, move cards from your hand.
When you successfully play a Superstar-specific non-Faction card, you may Promo: 3.
Unique     RMS logo     NXT logo

There's a lot of protection in this card, which is unfortunately necessary to make the gimmick work properly withone someone casually breaking the engine. And of course, more talking, haha.

A Certified G and a Bonafide Stud
Pre-match Event
Cannot be moved from your Ring by your opponent's effects.
When you play No Sell Maneuver, choose 1: discard 1 card or overturn 2 cards.
Your Ability gains: "Your Drop Kick is F: 0, +2D and blank.  When your opponent successfully plays a maneuver, you may remove the top card of your Arsenal from the game and his card is -4D.  When you Promo, you may put 1 card not chosen from your Ringside on the bottom of your Arsenal."
When 7 Foot Tall is flipped up or played, flip this card face-down.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     NXT logo

So here's where Enzo starts to describe his team members, as well as his limited ring abilities, heh. He'd go on to get more of a maneuver base, but mostly his offense seemed to just be a drop kick or two, and taking a beating. But when he tags out, in comes...

7 Foot Tall
Pre-match Event
Cannot be moved from your Ring by your opponent's effects.
Your Ability gains: "Your Big Boot is F: 0 and your maneuvers with 'boot' in the title are +2D.  When you Promo, you may put 1 card from your Ringside into your hand."
When A Certified G and a Bonafide Stud is flipped up or played, flip this card face-down.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     NXT logo

Now the Ability changes to perk Big Boot instead, as well as the perks from all that Promo-ing. But you could only have one of them active at a time.  And of course, each one of these cards played triggered an immediate Promo: 3 - because You Can't ... Teach ... That.

Realest Guys In The Room
Pre-match Event
At the end of the Pre-match Phase, search your Arsenal for 1 card listed in your Ability and 1 Superstar-specific card, reveal them, put them in your hand, and shuffle.
ACE: When playing a Multi maneuver, you may overturn 3 cards and then ignore 'completely' in your opponent's reversals and effects to it.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Permanent     NXT logo

As a bonus, the How You Doin' reversal let you reveal it frrom hand, shuffle it back, and Promo. Search for it with this card if you want to complete Enzo's full pre-match speech, haha.

The rest of the set was designed to compliment whoever was in the ring, with a primary effect and a rider for having that wrestler 'active'. For example, Big Cass's Big Boot prevented damage reduction when 7 Foot Tall was face-up, while the Smacktalker Skywalker Multi action ignored 'completely' when the Certified G was around.

Amusingly, as we were moving toward potentially getting these two into the game, WWE split them up. Fortunately, some initial designs built around having the Pre-match for that Superstar as a foundation, with pack allowances for cards that suited each individual.

Just in case, we added a couple Carmella logos to the reversals, so her set would start off with some fuel already from her days with this duo. Alas, she's been hanging in the background of a very talented women's division for a while, with only a brief time to shine as Smackdown Women's Champion. Still, she has Bada Bing waiting for her, perhaps one day...

Could this set be made?  I would say no, some of the reasons we chose not to at the time went beyond their WWE releases (again, not the point of this conversation) and in the end, while they generated a crazy amount of card titles, they didn't actually do very much in the WWE.

The design, however, was already repurposed once - into a stable that was later dissolved, sigh.  Aren't we supposed to release the cards FIRST before the Raw Deal curse strikes?

But perhaps this style, which I believe best suits a tag team or stable with very different members, will find it's way into Raw Deal.  Meanwhile, here's a look at the other great loss from this cancellation - how about that Superstar card, eh?  Bada Boom indeed.  :)


Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: the-edge666 on July 04, 2020, 10:31:49 AM
Would have loved to see Enzo & Cass in Raw Deal. I always thought they were very entertaining. The design suits them very well.
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on July 11, 2020, 09:41:47 AM
A few years back, we had a go at addressing some of the 'lost logos' of Raw Deal, characters who appeared on cards but didn't make it into the game.  The earliest examples of this were the individual members of the APA: Faarooq and Bradshaw.

Sadly, when JBL came to Raw Deal, he had moved so far from his alcolyte-turned-enforcer, backroom cardplayer brawler that the WWE didn't want the "Bradshaw" name used in reference. This worked out well for the design team, as they wanted to leave as much of the non-current references outside of the upcoming Afterburn format. So while JBL made a huge impact in the meta environment, he did it without the benefit of Beer, Cards, and More Beer.

But this is the Virtual era, can we craft something out of what used to be?  I put together two ideas I'd had elsewhere, and put together these small promo sets:

Starting Hand Size: 7     Superstar Value: 3
Superstar Ability: Once during any player's turn, you may overturn up to 10 cards, and your Fortitude Rating is +1F for each card overturned for the rest of the turn.
Your Clothesline from Hell is a Trademark Finisher instead of a Strike.  Your Beer, Cards, and More Beer is F: 0, replace the 'a maneuver' text with 'your first maneuver during each of your turns', and your opponent cannot respond to it.
You may pack No Sell Maneuver.

Thinking about Ted DiBiase's Trust Fund, where you 'bank' cards to reduce the Fortitude needed to play, another idea was to just burn the cards directly to reduce the cost. Being able to throw a 1st turn German Suplex, for example, simply by burning 4 cards had potential. To round out the previous cards available, some upgrades were provided, such as letting Beer's 'draw or peek' effect work on any maneuver he played (yes, I realize it messes up the first effect, whoops)

I'm not 100% on the timing of these, but like Can of Beer came along later, or it probably would have had Faarooq and Bradshaw logos as well.

Alcolytes of Old School Pain     (APA, Bradshaw, Faarooq logos)
Pre-match Event
Cannot be blanked.
Before the Draw Segment of your first turn of the game, put up to 3 cards on the bottom of your Arsenal and draw the same number of cards.
Your maneuvers are +1D.
ACE:  During your turn, you may put this card into your Ringside and either put up to 2 Backlash cards from your Ringside into your Backlash or put up to 3 cards from your Ringside on the bottom of your Arsenal;  when you use this effect, you may discard 2 cards and it cannot be reversed.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique

APA B2B FTW?  This ended up becoming a support card for the APA, but the intention was to give all 3 Superstars a chance to expand their cardpool a bit, without resorting to shoving ALL the APA cards into their decks, and weakening Superstar separation.

Drink or Fight!     (APA, Bradshaw, Faarooq logos)
Reversal: Special
When Beer, Cards, and More Beer is in your Ring, this card is F: 0.
Reverse any card and put 1 card from your Ringside into your hand.
When this card is in your Ring, do not discard when playing No Sell Maneuver.
F: 20     D: 0     Unique

I believe this concept was a variant of the Drink or Fight card once planned as APA support in Classic, but without wanting to directly give the APA too much more reversal power. This is the same reason the individuals could pack No Sell, but APA was not. Of course, it was reduced in cost when added to Virtual 8.

Starting Hand Size: 11     Superstar Value: 3
Superstar Ability: When your opponent's card or card effect moves cards from his Ringside to his Arsenal, you may shuffle the same number of cards -1 from your Ringside into your Arsenal.
Your Faarooq-specific maneuvers are Trademark Finishers instead, your Faarooq's Spike Spine Buster cards are F: 0, and your opponent cannot respond to your Damn!.
You may pack No Sell Maneuver and Legendary Defense.

With Ron Simmons in the Hall of Fame, it was a tough call whether to make Faarooq a legend or not. In this case, he would get LegDef to shore up his reversal base without having to eat cheap Shoot Lock-ups. The idea was to have a Rock-like ability, but as 'tough' as the opponent dictated rather than just a single card recovery.

Dramatic Pause     (Faarooq logo)
Mid-match Reversal: Special
Reverse any non-maneuver card and put Damn! from your Ring or Ringside into your Backlash.
When this card is in your Ring, Damn! is -10F.
F: 5     D: 0     Unique

This would have meant one less card for Bradshaw than Faarooq's set, but that was fine IMO. This, and his Ability perk, meant he was far more likely to use his favorite word.

APA Throwdown     (APA, Bradshaw, Faarooq logos)
Grapple + Grapple
When you are Faarooq, this card is -4F.
Can only be reversed by 2 reversal cards.
Your opponent discards 2 cards.
F: 11     D: 9     SV: 2     Unique     Multi

"Back in the day" when my friends and I would watch APA in action, we agreed that the double spinebuster should have been called the Throwdown, thus the title. Giving the team another new card was nice, without making yet another reversal!

Unfortunately, the sets felt very small, even with adding the APA cards in, and didn't feel like well-rounded Superstars. It was also difficult to find interesting images and concepts to go with them, not to mention the demand for these two had fallen off, mostly a mere curiosity as to what could have been. (If Barron had some plans for them as singles, I never heard about it)

Could this be reused? It already was! Faarooq was merged with some D-Lo Brown concepts to make the Nation of Domination in Virtual 8, while the other support became APA cards in the same set. Bradshaw's ability could be revisited down the line, but with a newer character that has more thematic elements to build around.

So here's a look at what could have been, but ultimately just wasn't quite enough:

( (

Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: NJDevil18 on July 11, 2020, 11:19:18 AM
I just want to say I love this thread. Seeing cards that never saw the light of day is awesome, so thank you creed.
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: darkdestiny91 on July 13, 2020, 08:16:45 AM
I love the design of Enzo & Cass, more for the actual feel of two wrestlers tagging in and out in a match, with the two "interchangeable" abilities. Hope to see it used in newer designs of tag teams, since most of them don't really have such a feel to them.
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on July 18, 2020, 09:00:28 AM
Sorry guys, no new info this time around, it's been a stressful week (boss is talking about possible furlough) and I don't have anything ready. I'll try to have more for show & tell next weekend.

Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: maskedllama on July 21, 2020, 04:34:51 PM
It is a shame that Enzo and Cass never made it into the game because that design is spot on for them. The card looks great, too! 

The Farooq and Bradshaw cards look good too.  JBL looks so different like that, though.  I hardly recognize him. 

Creed, I hope that all goes well with you and the family.  Take your time.  we understand your priorities. 
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on July 25, 2020, 09:08:01 AM
A few years ago, the international Superstar Kenta Kobayashi (known as KENTA) came into NXT on a wave of much-deserved hype! Alas, this was before they fully embraced the concept that people would be interested in the identity built on the Indys or in another country, and didn't need the WWE 'reinvention' machine every time.

The name chosen was Hideo Itami, which literally translates to "Hero of Pain".  He came in as a friend to Finn Bálor, and made a strong impact, including an appearance at Wrestlemania. However, a string of injuries seemed to regularly disrupt his momentum, even when moved to 205 Live. Eventually, Kenta and WWE parted ways, and he has since returned to Japan.

TimJR had an idea for his character, since he didn't talk much or have a lot of character features, that he could be built around delivering vicious strikes that got harder to deal with as he wore you down. So we ended up with this:

Starting Hand Size: 7     Superstar Value: 2
NXT Cruiserweight Superstar Ability: Your opponent must discard # cards in order to play a non-Unique reversal to your non-Set-up non-Chain maneuver without 'reversed' in the text, where # is equal to the number of cards with the same title in your Ring.
You can pack Roundhouse Kick when packing Smackdown or BASH cards. You cannot pack Man of 1000 Holds or Revolution maneuvers.

The "Cruiserweight" part was tacked on when the 205 Live card was created, with a plan to utilize those features in some fashion. Meanwhile, he gets a Chain-like ability provided he doesn't use existing Chain moves, or Set-ups as the easy way out (unstoppable PRS Slingshot barrage FTW?  Yikes).

Initially we were going to let him pack Punk's G.T.S. because he never seemed to do it! Eventually WWE allowed him to hit the move, and with a usable picture, we'd planned to make his own version of Go 2 Sleep.

Hideo's Gi
Backstage Card
When this card is in your Backstage or Ring, your non-Unique Drop Kick cards are High Risks instead, your maneuvers are considered Raw for the effects of your Roundhouse Kick cards, and your Knee Lift cards are Multi. When this card is in your Ring, it is also considered to have any of those card titles.
You may put this card from your Backstage into your Ring to reverse a non-Superstar-specific non-maneuver card.
Unique     Permanent     RMS logo     NXT logo

So begins the focus on old Strike cards, where he can potentially gain +1 to a few key moves to increase their effectiveness.

Pre-match Event
Cannot be blanked.
At the end of the Pre-match phase, search your Arsenal for up to 1 non-Unique maneuver, reveal it, put it in your hand, and shuffle.
Your opponent's non-Superstar-specific reversals to your Strike and High Risk maneuvers deal a maximum of 3D.
This card is also considered to be titled Drop Kick, Spinning Heel Kick and Leg Sweep for your effects.
F: 0     D: 0     Unique     Permanent     NXT logo

The name of his theme music, it translates to "Time Has Come" I believe. With hybrid Strike reversals being so common, we gave him some damage reduction, and added more to the aggressiveness of those Strikes by increasing the costs to stop them.

Hero of Pain
Mid-match Reversal: Special
Reverse any non-Trademark Finisher maneuver and your opponent discards 2 random cards.
F: 10     D: 0     Unique     NXT logo

This much empty space on a card makes me a bit sad, haha, but it could have been used for a helpful rider discovered in playtesting.  Plus the picture was fun!

The other maneuvers played off the card titles, often cloning them to gain the Ability benefits. For example, Hesitation Drop Kick was also considered a 'Drop Kick'.

Unfortunately, as we look to who deserves the slots in each set, Hideo never quite made the cut. We'd discussed a possible 205 Live holiday at one point, though most of the initial Cruiserweights have either been left WWE (TJ Perkins, Rich Swann) or have moved up without making much of an impact (Ali, Gulak).

Could this set be made? Potentially, it was briefly considered for Aliester Black but he has enough thematic elements to build around, and this structure is a bit pigeon-holed into the specific maneuvers, which limits versatility in design. So not an outright "no", but probably not.

Here's what could have been, if Kenta had been less unlucky, and made his big impact in WWE somewhere other than the Cutting Room Floor...


I had to throw in that great reversal pic, heh
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: CreedP on August 01, 2020, 09:31:38 AM
Something a little different today, no graphical reference though. But on a soon-to-be-aired Velacards video, we did a breakdown for No Way Out. During the research for that set, I saw a whole concept for a new ECW 'brand' in Raw Deal that went unused, some of which will sound very familiar...

It was 2006, the first ECW One Night Stand PPV was a huge success, and the idea of bringing back the brand was in the works. Later that year, there would be another One Night Stand leading to Rob Van Dam capturing the WWE Championship from John Cena, and kicking off a new ECW weekly show. The plans for this were known ahead of time, and undoubtedly Barron saw the potential to expand the game accordingly.

Raw and Smackdown already existed, so the challenge was devising the purpose of a 3rd brand to give some different approach to the game and a new avenue to build around that gave a unique experience by comparison.  The start of this were the rules for ECW cards:

So what did the first iteration of these cards look like? Much like their BASH versions later, they were simple moves without much in the way of effects. (The initial BASH design included F: 0 maneuvers like this before the decision was made to upgrade their F/D and make them Multi instead). Here's the initial 0.1 version, before they were all cut in the 0.2 iteration:

ECW Headlock
When successfully played, your opponent discards 1 card.
F: 0     D: 4

ECW Suplex
F: 0     D: 5     SV: 1

ECW Punch
F: 0     D: 6

ECW Slam
F: 4     D: 8     SV: 1

ECW Kick
F: 5     D: 9     SV: 1

ECW Dive
High Risk
Can only be played after a successfully played card.
F: 8     D: 8

When successfully played, look at the top cards of your Arsenal and put them back in any order, equal to the number of ECW cards in your Ring area.
F: 12     D: 13     SV: 1

ECW Power Slam
When successfully played, draw cards equal to the number of ECW cards in your Ring area.
F: 14     D: 16     SV: 2

ECW Clothesline
When successfully played, your opponent discards cards equal to the number of ECW cards in your Ring area.
F: 16     D: 14     SV: 2

The Retaliation of ECW
Reversal: Special: Run-in
Reverse any maneuver and end your opponent’s turn.
The reversed maneuver cannot be a Chain, Heat, Multi, Throwback, Unique, Volley, ECW, or Dynamic maneuver or have the word “blindside,” “precision,” or “technical” in the title.
F: 0     D: 0

Catch as You Catch Can ECW Style
Reveal any number of ECW cards in your hand.
Shuffle up to double that many cards from your Ringside pile into your Arsenal.
F: 0     D: 0

Your opponent overturns cards equal to the number of ECW cards in your Ring area.
F: 15     D: 5

ECW Rules Match
Pre-match Stipulation
Once during each of your turns you may overturn 3 cards and then put 1 Foreign Object from your Ringside pile into your hand.
F: 0     D: 0     Permanent     RMS

ECW 4 Life
Pre-match Event
All players search their Arsenal for any number of hybrid Reversal cards and remove them from the game. All players search their opponent’s Arsenal and if they find more than 4 non-Superstar-specific hybrid Reversal cards, their opponent loses the game via Pinfall Victory. All players shuffle their Arsenal.
F: 0     D: 0     Permanent

And the tournament prize card:

ECW Finisher
Trademark Finisher: Foreign Object
F: 30     D: 20     SV: 3     Unique

There were no ECW Superstars planned in this initial version, but there was one obvious Superstar who would be tied to the ECW concept, though for whatever reason, WWE did not approve a support card for him:

I Can’t Take Much More     (Paul Heyman logo)
Action / Reversal: Special
As an action, this card is -8F and -2D, search your Arsenal for 1 ECW card, reveal it to your opponent, put it into your hand, and shuffle your Arsenal.
As a reversal, reverse any Unique card and end your opponent’s turn.
F: 8     D: 2

Safe to say we know this concept could be utilized! Beyond the BASH mechanic, the ECW 4 Life card was a concept they'd discussed following the redwall era of Unforgiven, to cut back on hybrid reversals; this concept became the Denville, New Jersey venue later in development. The brand-based ideas is something we worked to develop in Virtual as well, with Extreme Rules Match utilizing the possibility of overturning to pick up Foreign Objects beyond Chicago Street Fight's discard cost.

Alas, much like the WWE program, the ECW brand was cancelled from No Way Out, and was left on the Cutting Room Floor.

Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: darkdestiny91 on August 04, 2020, 08:55:48 AM
Thank god we didn't get the ECW archetype. It strays so far away from actually feeling extreme that it actually felt really boring.

TBH I adore how much love was given to ECW later on, Terry Funk remains one of my most favorite decks to ever play.
Title: Re: The Cutting Room Floor
Post by: maskedllama on August 09, 2020, 08:41:16 AM
Yeah, I have to agree that BASH fit better NOT as an ECW style set of cards.

Wow, Hideo looks great.  Shame he didn't make the cut, but he was just snake-bit.  We can't have everyone, I suppose.  Neat ability.